posted on April 28, 2003 05:33:20 PM new
Well, I just had $54.95 reversed from my Paypal account. This was the email that I received from Paypal:
Notification of Reversed Transaction
Dear xxxxx xxxxx,
We have conducted an investigation regarding a particular
payment you received. We have determined that the
funds were fraudulent and have completed a reversal of the
payment. The funds from the following transaction have
been debited from your account.
If you have questions regarding this reversed transaction
you may send an email to [email protected].
Thank you,
PayPal Account Review Department
The buyer evidently used a stolen credit card to pay me through Paypal. Even if you jump through all the hoops to get seller protection from Paypal, now a buyer can simply claim the item is not as described to get the payment reversed.
I really liked using Paypal over the last 3 years. But starting now, I refuse to take the risk of chargebacks from fraudulent buyers. From now on, I will only accept checks and money orders and I will promote Western Union's Bidpay online payment service which is much more safe for sellers.
[ edited by ebayauctionguy on Apr 28, 2003 05:34 PM ]
[ edited by ebayauctionguy on Apr 28, 2003 05:36 PM ]
posted on April 28, 2003 05:40:43 PM new
follow the rules do not apply when it comes to fraud.seller protection only applies to good fund,good card and seller complies with paypal terms.
bid pay is expensive,a 230 dollars money order is over 10 dollars.
max is only 700 dollars.
posted on April 28, 2003 05:43:48 PM new
SW: according to PP, you are INCORRECT:
What is the Seller Protection Policy?
Sellers will not be held liable for chargebacks due to fraud (including payments made with stolen credit cards and false claims of non-shipment) when they follow the rules of our Seller Protection Policy:
The seller has a Verified U.S. or Canadian Business or Premier Account
The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
The seller ships within 7 days of receiving payment.
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address. For items valued at $250 or more, you must include a signature from the recipient as proof of receipt.
The seller ships tangible goods. Since comparable widely-accepted proof-of-shipment methods are not currently available for intangible goods and services, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
The seller accepted a single payment from one PayPal account for a purchase.
The seller shipped to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
When a complaint occurs, sellers need to provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, sellers must provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the email message sent to the seller.
Please review our Buyer Complaint Policy to learn the specific terms and conditions of the Buyer Complaint Process.
Note: If you ship to a non-U.S. Verified member, it is not the same as shipping to a U.S. Verified member, and you will not be covered by the PayPal Seller Protection Policy.
Ralphie loves Mr Blonde:
"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?"
http://tinyurl.com/5duz
posted on April 28, 2003 05:52:23 PM new
thanks,then my question is -usps delivery confirmation does not prove seller shipped to confirmed address,it just shows it arrives at destination post office/
lets say i sold a 150 dollars item which i do not have,i ship an empty box with delivery confirmation to any address within that vicinity of the buyer confirmed address.
now what??
pick any silly address on that street,do not include return address so it wont come back to me>
posted on April 28, 2003 05:57:18 PM new
It was not a confirmed address. About 20% of all Paypal payments I received in the past were from unconfirmed addresses.
Because I don't wish to wait in line at the post office for 30 minutes everyday, I hand off my outgoing packages (with correct postage) to the mail carrier. Since I can't use delivery confirmation with this system, I wouldn't be protected anyway. There's too many hoops to jump through to get Paypal's "seller protection."
Even worse, now a fraudulent buyer can simply say the item was not as described and get a chargeback. How do you protect against that?
posted on April 28, 2003 06:03:08 PM new
yes,you can use dc when you just hand your shipments over to your carrier.you can either leave the tearoff sheet on the box and hope your mailman will bring them back to you stamped.or you can just remove and keep it at home with you.
having it stamped is not necessary,all you need is the tracking number to keep paypal happy.
of course ,with insurance slips it is different,it must be stamped
posted on April 28, 2003 06:07:14 PM new
Everything with PP involves DECISIONS!
If you are UNABLE or UNWILLING to follow PP's TERMS OF USE, then, of course, you should NOT use PayPal.
Over the past 2 days alone, I had to make PP decisions:
1) Very nice UK guy won 2 of my auctions & wanted to pay with PP -- I had to tell him nicely "NO!" & I explained why my auctions SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE international PP payments...there's NO protection! He paid with BidPay
2) Lady won $15.00 auction & shipping address is UNCONFIRMED! I accepted the pmt, well aware that I have NO protection! This was an informed decision I made weighing the low value of the item against the high value to her satisfaction.
3) Another guy wants shipping to UNCONFIRMED address, but this time, it's for $50!! So, I accepted the payment, but shipped with SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION! He could pull poopoo on me, but if he does, I'll be prepared -- not with PP (I lost my protection) but with the COPS or POSTAL INSPECTORS!!
PP works great! NOT perfect! But what is??
Ralphie loves Mr Blonde:
"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?"
http://tinyurl.com/5duz
posted on April 28, 2003 06:12:42 PM new
Ok, well what about Paypal's new policy that allows buyers to make a Paypal chargeback if they don't feel like the item was as described in the auction? How do you protect against fraud?
posted on April 28, 2003 06:24:23 PM new
from what i recall when i agree to the new paypal policy,paypal does not twist our arms to refund if buyer returns the item with dc.it goes on our record that we do not refund.
but then what do you say to the buyer,??i have the item and i have your money as well??
if i refused the item,it is still logged in at post office as swiped and there is no proof that i refuse the item??
i think paypal is saying if the buyer returns the item,take it back and refund.
posted on April 28, 2003 06:29:39 PM new
Basically, PP says to the buyer TS:
"If your claim involves receiving not-as-described goods, we suggest using an online-trackable shipping service if you choose to return the goods to the seller. Please be aware that though you are not covered for not-as-described claims under this Buyer Complaint Policy, using an online-trackable shipping service may help you in working directly with the seller to resolve the problem. We also encourage you to file claims with us as you feel necessary for not-as-described merchandise. We will pass your complaint on to the seller and keep track of the claims for fraud control purposes."
Seems like PP is blowing smoke up the buyers' collective derrieres!
Ralphie loves Mr Blonde:
"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?" http://tinyurl.com/5duz
posted on April 28, 2003 06:33:39 PM new
If you print your Priority Mail shipping labels online from the USPS website, you can get free online dleivery confirmation tracking.
posted on April 28, 2003 06:45:46 PM new
so what paypal is saying -buyer can return the item with dc but if seller would not refund,there is nothing we can do and will do .
so buyer wastes 55 cents using dc.
unless buyer files chargeback with his cc issuer.
posted on April 28, 2003 08:29:02 PM new
BidPay sounds good in theory, especially to sellers that would no longer pay any fees or have any PP risks. Getting the buyers to use BidPay will be very, very difficult though.
posted on April 28, 2003 09:01:42 PM newebayauctionguy: as Traderfour said, you can use the Shipping Assistant at the USPS website and get free DC with Priority Mail and DC for 13 cents for Media Mail, Parcel Post, and qualifying First Class Mail (boxed, or at least 3/4 inch thick). Still use your stamps and give your packages to your mail carrier as you do now, but with DC tracking that may help you with any future problems (claims of nondelivery, etc.)
I personally use Endicia and really love the service. It will print the postage in addition to the free or lower-cost DC. Again, you can just give your packages to your mail carrier. It's the best time and money saver I can think of for this business.
Oh, and thank you to tomwiii for recommending Endicia to me several years ago. He got a referral credit and sent me the cutest online card (porn-free, if you can believe that!)
MPI
[ edited by mypostingid on Apr 28, 2003 09:02 PM ]
posted on April 28, 2003 09:37:31 PM new
If I can get delivery confirmation online for 13 cents, I guess that there's no reason why I shouldn't accept Paypal from confirmed addresses.
But I'm still concerned about the new Paypal policy that guarantees that the item must be as described in the auction. I guarantee everything I sell, but this policy sounds like it is a great opportunity for fraud.
Can someone again explain Paypal's new "not-as-described" policy? From what I read above, Paypal won't make a chargeback under this policy unless there are many complaints against the seller.
posted on April 29, 2003 03:56:19 AM new
As a seller, BidPay is a good deal and I don't mind using it. But, as a buyer it stinks. I don't want to have to spend money to send you money. I usually pass by auctions that give money orders and BidPay as their only accepted form of payment. How absurd is it to pay $5 for something and have to pay another $2.00 to BidPay for your money order? I also don't want to have to lug myself up to the bank or post office to buy a money order. The only real time I have to do that is on the weekend. And, to be honest, I have better things to do on my days off.
Sure, you assume some risk with Paypal, but I think the benefits outweigh that risk. Especially if you follow the rules.
posted on April 29, 2003 05:58:46 AM new
many sellers also accept personal checks.
you can get money orders at supermarkets.
the whole idea of paypal is convenience-buyer does not have to mail payment and seller does not have to have a merchant account.
some buyers just dont have the fund in their checking account,so using their cc allow them to buy on credit .
posted on April 29, 2003 06:11:23 AM new
We also have a Merchant Account. You are no more subject to a charge back with PayPal than with a Merchant Account. Charge backs will always be a possibility if you take credit cards in any form. You just hope the additional slaes will outweigh any losses.
posted on April 29, 2003 01:09:21 PM new
since ebay is an auction,you may win a very nice item at 5,00 which is worth 20,so what is 2.00 for bidpay??
i agree,whether you use paypal or your own merchant account,you are exposed to chargeback.
what about people who buy from you,use it for a while and return it and demand full refund??
posted on April 29, 2003 06:17:40 PM new
You will NEVER 100% remove fraud from sales. No matter what you do, it could easily happen. People can forge money orders. Bidpay is great for sellers, esp. for international buyers. I had a person pay today for a shipment to Hungary. Getting buyers to use it is another matter, when it costs money to do so. As a buyer, I would NOT use bidpay, so how can I expect my customers to use it.
In this case, you sold to someone who used a stolen credit card? You still have the name and address of the person, at a minimum you should be contacting them and starting to press charges with their local police, and bringing the postal inspectors onboard.
posted on April 29, 2003 06:25:32 PM new
I was actually being sarcastic with the $2 remark regarding Bidpay. The seller part of me is remarking at how everyone wants something for nothing. Most expect a $50 item for $5.00 and scream at paying $3.85 for Priority Mail plus $2.00 to Bidpay. They still make out, but don't tell them that.
I've used Bidpay. I just find it inconvenient and a lot of typing and entering that I just don't care to do. Sure, I can get a MO at the supermarket. I just don't happen to enjoy spending 1/2 hour in line to do so. In my neighborhood, the PA and SS checks get cashed their regularly so the line is always long.
As a seller, I prefer it when a customer uses Paypal. Twice I've had MO's get "lost in the mail". Took over a month to receive payment on those auctions.
posted on April 29, 2003 07:07:26 PM new
I think this sums it up:
"So just bid $3 - if you win, pay $2 to Bidpay and there's the $5 total.
Bidders who don't take shipping or other expenses into account when they bid should do their shopping at WalMart."
I think that's what happens. If you require M.O.'s, most buyers are savvy enough to include that in their total bid. So, if they're willing to pay $20, and is costs $2 for a M.O., they'll only bid $18. No PP fees, so you clear $18. For Paypal, they pay $20, there are ~$.80 (guessing) in fees, you clear $19.20.
Effectively, no matter who pays the transaction fees, the buyer or the seller, the seller ends up paying. Plus, many may not bid if PP is not accepted; after all, the bidder has no protection if a M.O. is sent, so why would they want to pay that way?
So weigh the costs. If you are getting chargebacks of 5%+, then ditch PayPal (if they don't ditch you first!). If they're under 1%, accept it as a cost of doing business with the realization that taking PayPal helps you overall. A big chrageback stings, but that's the way it goes.
posted on April 30, 2003 10:57:17 AM new
The cost of doing business will include chargebacks. The merchant accounts charge a "service fee" on top of the transaction amount, so you fared better than other sellers. Paypal doesn't want you to say goodbye; they want to make more money off you. I suggest you ask Paypal to take the hit on the reversed transaction. You never know how accomodating a company will be unless you ask (politely).
posted on April 30, 2003 01:53:16 PM new
>>We also have a Merchant Account. You are no more subject to a charge back with PayPal than with a Merchant Account. Charge backs will always be a possibility if you take credit cards in any form. You just hope the additional slaes will outweigh any losses<<
This statement is false. When you have your own merchant account, you deal directly with the customer. There is no middle man to mess around, ignore your emails and faxes and decide that it is YOUR fault without even talking to you. Paypal has done that. Paypal has also taken money away from party C which was received from party B because party B received it from A who used a stolen credit card. How was C to even know? I also know a seller who had money reversed from his paypal account because they claimed the buyer charged it back. The buyer denies it and sent the seller copies of her credit card statement showing that she paid it. What about the buyer who returned a $2500 bag to paypal and got her money back for no reason other than buyer's remorse? When you have your own merchant account, you are allowed to have sales terms which prohibit this or at least charge a restocking fee. And even if the buyer uses a stolen credit card, Paypal will not tell the seller any of the buyer's info. They will actually protect a known criminal.
The bottom line is that the protection plan is so murky, it usually winds up protecting the scammer. And as long as Paypal can make someone else foot the bill, they won't make much of an effort to recover funds. The answer is getting a real merchant account. In 4 years, I had only 3 chargeback attempts (the last one two years ago) and won all three.
The only drawback to merchant accounts are the monthly fees and minimums you pay even if you don't do much business. Fortunately, there is at least one company that has a pay-as-you-go plan, so you only pay for what you use. As your usage goes up, your rates go down. It's a great way to build up your business. I have also discovered that customers consider you more reputable if you have a real merchant account and tend to spend more.
You can read some articles I wrote about merchant accounts and get a free ebook (which I didnt write) at
www.ccs-digital.com/merchantact.asp
posted on April 30, 2003 02:03:27 PM new
To be accurate it's $2.95 to use BidPay not $2. Half of the seller's on ebay seem to have $5 to use BidPay in their TOS.
Cheryl