posted on July 12, 2004 10:22:45 AM new
Is Amazon.com becoming the Napster of the book business?
The analogy may not be far off, say some observers of the used-book industry. Publishers, particularly textbook publishers, have long countered used-book sales by churning out new editions every couple of years. But the Web, particularly sites like Amazon and eBay, have given millions of consumers an easy way to find cheap books--often for under $1--without paying royalty fees to publishers or authors.
Mass-market publishers are not certain the used-book phenomenon is a problem worth addressing, but others in the industry have already made up their minds.
"We think it's not good for the industry and it has an effect, but we can't measure it," said Paul Aiken, executive director of the Authors Guild, a trade group. "There has always been used-book sales, but it's always been a background noise sort of thing. Now it's right there next to the new book on Amazon."
Lorraine Shanley, a principal at Market Partners International, a publishing consultant, said that the industry was just starting to appreciate the dimensions of the problem.
"Used books are to consumer books as Napster was to the music industry," she said. "The question becomes, 'How does the book industry address its used-book problem?' There aren't any easy answers, especially as no one is breaking any laws here."
Shanley, whose company reported on used books this month in its newsletter, Publishing Trends, said that publishers were beginning to see the effects. "We've asked publishers how much of an issue it is, and the responses are either 'I have so many other problems to deal with,' or 'Yes, it's an issue, but as there are no easy fixes, I can't really focus on it,' '' she said.
Greg Greeley, Amazon's vice president for media products for North America and Japan, strenuously disagreed with the notion that online sales of used books harmed the publishing industry. And Kathryn Blough, the vice president for the Association of American Publishers, said that she "wouldn't jump to the conclusion that used books are eating away at the new-book market."
Blough said used-book sales were growing, particularly online, and new-book sales had been "a little flat." The publishers association reported earlier this year that 2003 sales for mass-market paperbacks and for hardcover and paperback books were virtually unchanged from 2002, when they reached roughly $3.5 billion. But Blough said the new-book market could be weak for several reasons, including a slow economy and a sharp increase in other media vying for the book reader's attention.
Amazon has listed used books alongside new books since late 2000. But analysts and industry executives said the momentum among consumers and newly minted used-book sellers was just now approaching the point of biting into new-book sales.
"We've not been able to pinpoint a definite effect, but my gut is that absolutely there's an effect," said Dominique Raccah, chief executive of Sourcebooks of Naperville, Ill., a publisher of both fiction and nonfiction titles. "And it concerns me that we're not formalizing a reasonable, proactive response."
The industry's response so far has been to consider a study on the effects of the used-book market, but in the meantime, some research already suggests that used-book purchases are surging.
Based on consumer surveys, Ipsos BookTrends, which is a division of the research and consulting firm Ipsos-Insight, said that 15 percent of all books for adults and teenagers that were purchased from April to December 2003 were used--an increase of 5 percentage points from the same period in 2002. Meanwhile, the Web's share of sales in the same time period increased to 12.7 percent from 9.7 percent.
"This is not a new phenomenon," said Albert N. Greco, a professor at Fordham University's graduate school of business administration. "But now it's different. The computer and the Internet have revolutionized things."
New market for used books
Furthermore, Greco said, there is no stigma attached to buying used books. "It's not like buying a used pair of shoes. And the prices are very reasonable," he said. "You can find good-quality used paperbacks on Amazon for under $2, and in some cases under $1."
Last week, for instance, used copies of Alexander McCall Smith's detective novel "Tears of the Giraffe," which was No. 5 on Amazon's paperback best-seller list, sold for 55 cents, compared with Amazon's list price of $9.56.
Of course, Amazon and eBay are not the only used-book merchants online. Alibris, the Advanced Book Exchange and others have also attracted a following among online buyers of the dog-eared. But industry executives and analysts widely acknowledge Amazon as the engine of the market.
Greeley, the Amazon executive, declined to cite statistics on the company's used-book effort, but he said sales had been growing nicely since Amazon started listing used books alongside new books and offering to sell its customers' used books for a 15 percent commission. Low-volume sellers must pay an additional commission of 99 cents a book.
Greeley said the site now carried "millions and millions of titles--many that you can't find through traditional channels."
Greeley also disputes the contention that Amazon could be hurting publishers or authors by selling books that yield no royalties. "Our interests are incredibly aligned with publishers and authors," he said. "We see this as a virtuous cycle. The lower prices of used books allow people to experiment with authors and genres in ways they might not have otherwise.
"We definitely see people who buy at a lower price point come back and buy new books in that same genre," Greeley added.
Advanced Book Exchange, a Canadian company that sells books through its Web site, Abebooks.com, recently added new books to its offering of used titles. Executives said that the company's used-book sales were increasing 20 percent to 30 percent a year, reaching $110 million in the past 12 months. That figure includes sales in Canada and Europe, but 70 percent of online sales are to American customers.
Abebooks.com's number of used-book sellers has also jumped, to 12,000 from 8,000 two years ago, the company said. And the number of books available roughly doubled, to 55 million from 30 million, in the same period.
The company's chief executive, Hannes Blum, said he believed new-book sales might be even softer were it not for the used-books market. "We're increasing the demand for books over all," he said.
But professor Greco of Fordham, who conducts publishing industry research on behalf of the Book Industry Study Group, said he was "absolutely convinced that used-book sales will ultimately cut into an industry that's not growing at all."
He said that when publishers began to study the impact of used books on their backlists--the roster of older paperback books that enjoy steady demand from students and the mass market--they would find signs of damage from the used-book sellers.
"Trade publishing houses live and die with their backlist revenues," Greco said. "The thing is, when you've got 8,000 to 12,000 titles in your backlists, unless you monitor carefully you won't notice the blips, because they're small right now. Ultimately, though, they won't be."
posted on July 12, 2004 10:53:53 AM new
I can see the concern of the new book sellers but to compare amazon use books to Napster is ludicrous. If Amazon were xeroxing the books and selling them then I could agree. But selling used books is totally legal. What they don’t like of course is that Amazon puts the used ones in the same listing as the new ones so in effect less new books will be sold. I personally love it. Why should I pay $45 for an after market computer book that I can get on Ebay or Amazon for less than $10? I get the info I need and pass it on to someone else thus saving more money.
The Publishers need to stop whining and either price the books more realistically or get a new marketing strategy. Legislation to “control” this problem would be bad for all of us. When are we going to learn that another law is not the solution to the problem?
MHO
Don
posted on July 12, 2004 12:13:36 PM new
I have not bought a new book for ages. It's surprising that 2003 new book sales were flat compared to 2002. I thought the used book market would be lower. It must be true that the used market is increasing the demand for books overall.
posted on July 12, 2004 12:38:20 PM new
there is really not much the publishers can do,the hobbyist seller who bot the book,read it and want to rid it is not doing anything illegal.
yeah,he wants to get rid of the book so badly,he would list it at one penny,and make money on shipping.
The only way for the amzn and ebay of the world to prevent price deflation is to raise the cost of doing business for these hobbyist sellers.
Think,if you want to have a brick and mortar store,you have to sign annual lease and pay a monthly rent,the landlord is not going to let you have a store free,or only charge rent when an item is sold or charge a daily rent with no lease commitment.
I would say if amzn charges a listing fee the way ebay does,many of the cheap used books from one penny and up will disappear.
AMZN is the biggest garbage dumpster for used books from individual consumers.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 12, 2004 12:41:28 PM new
Oh Amazon, go soak your head.
Napster, as if. BTW, you want to see screwed? Go ask any college student buying a $180 10th edition when the 9th edition probably is just as good.
And, as a person who moved from a city with a pretty stunning pair of library systems to the boondocks, it's just about tantamount to access to books period!
I asked the librarian about Leonard Schlain, and they just bought their first copy of his work.
Now, there is not much that will get people to turn off their television, the great imagination eater, but if people will Read Jane Austen instead of Watch Jane Austen, we'd be a better country.
Maybe the overt propagandist would be less popular, and some actual critical thinking would ensue.
Perish the though that people call themselves, proudly mind you, "dittoheads" I think there are a few letters I could substitute!
posted on July 12, 2004 12:49:10 PM new
What an amazing "problem" for the book publishers! You'd think they'd want to encourage reading, which I think the used-book market does.
When we want a new book, for a gift or because we love the author that much!, we go to Amazon. Otherwise, it's the library or book sites for a used "reading" copy of the book.
posted on July 12, 2004 01:11:40 PM new
some readers do not want used books- they feel it could be contaminated ,you dontknow the prior owner and what kind of germs he carried,
It depends on how wellheeled you are ??some just dont want used books,used clothes,used furniture ,used diapers,underwear ??????
As for getting the whole country to read jane austin,you will have to bomb all the shopping malls and their food courts.
Question-
is it okay if i read jane austin wearing my capri pants??
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 12, 2004 02:38:51 PM new
Hi Japerton,
I think you may have misunderstood, it's not Amazon that is upset about this. It is the publishers. They would like amazon not to sell used books alongside new books. If people recycle their books less new books are sold.
Stop,
As for germs, that's a bizarre concept. I guess these people don’t go to B. Dalton or Barnes & Noble either. People do handle the books there. I often get brand new, sometimes shrink wrapped, books for less than half price on Ebay or Amazon. When buying aftermarket computer books this is what I prefer because they still have the CD. In Amazon’s and Ebay’s used book listings lots of books are in brand new condition, probably never been read.
posted on July 12, 2004 03:22:14 PM new
don,
i sell remainder books,they are new books,some are shrinkwrapped and very good value for the readers.
As for old books contaminated with germs,it is possible as some are stored in attics,garages,or just places which collect dusts and mildew.
Have you ever smell a book with mildew and fungus??How can you enjoy jane austin when jane austin ekes musky mildew odor.
I dont know how long germs can survive,but in doctor's office,a patient with skin disease can pass the spores to the books he touched.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 12, 2004 03:59:26 PM new
Just got to comment on this one.... I read a lot, always have. I do not buy paperbacks as they are WAY overpriced new OR used, I buy Hard bound books at a thrift store (Usually) for $1.00 each!. I read the ones I like and trash the rest (about 75%) I have found some real gems throughout the years.
I was in another used book store about two weeks ago, A gent had bags of like NEW books. The book store only would buy a few. He gave away dozens of like new books that cost 25.00 and up. I got about 10. They will all end up in the trash as the content is stupid.
The problem is, to high prices WAY to high new, and a glut of near new or new books that no one wants, after close examination.
Good books by good authors are a joy to own (I have several hundred)but the market has way to much junk floating around.
posted on July 12, 2004 07:14:02 PM new
okay,so it is JANE AUSTEN.
I read what i sell,i dont sell JANE AUSTEN.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 12, 2004 08:01:54 PM new
The Napster comparison is just in the business sense, not the piracy sense.
In any event, publishers may look at the way OEM software is sold and try to get ideas about preventing the re-selling of used books.
I can see why publishers are worried. I haven't bought a new book in years. It is too easy to wait a few months and buy the book for pennies on the dollar in the used market.
The internet has made it very easy to find what you want in th eused book genre.
posted on July 12, 2004 08:25:34 PM new
same can be said of clothes,shoes,electronics,any consumer goods.
wait awhile and it will be marked down 25%,33 %,65 %,75%.
what a deal!!
May be the publisher should find out why readers are so anxious to rid their books,sometimes at any cost-say one penny!!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 13, 2004 07:53:37 AM new
Book publishers are the last to figure anything out...they have always been dismissive of the practical lessons of the market.
Len Riggio from B&N told them several years ago that books were too expensive and he was right.
In any case, First Amendment issues present an insurmountable obstacle to limiting / controlling used book sales.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."- John Wayne/The Shootist"(from the novel by Glendon Swarthout)
[ edited by pandorasbox on Jul 13, 2004 07:54 AM ]
posted on July 13, 2004 11:16:37 AM new
I was just thinking along these same lines last night. That Ebay has essentially created another era/age...like "machine age".
A few years ago you would of paid (well maybe not, but you know what I mean) $400.00 for a designer suit - and I'm sure that there are some who still do. However there are a lot of people who won't (me included) because we know we could buy it on Ebay for up to 80% less. I think it's having a real impact on the economy and on the stores in general.
I don't really see ebay declining...but I do see a lot more of NWT clothes than you used to on there.
I do agree though that books have gotten to be too expensive. I used to think paying $3.00 for a new paperback was outrageous. I was shocked when I actually picked one up lately and it was $7.00 or $8.00!
Thank goodness the libraries are still free. Although I noticed that mine buys a lot of their books at Sam's!
posted on July 13, 2004 11:26:37 AM new
stores mark down the designer suits and you can feel it ,try it on,compare with others and return them.
By the time suits are selling at 80% discount,what size and colors are available.
I am looking for shoes right now,the right size and colors are not available at discount??
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 13, 2004 11:31:08 AM newIn any case, First Amendment issues present an insurmountable obstacle to limiting / controlling used book sales.
It has nothing to do with the First Amendment, it does have to do with the First Sale doctrine of copyright law.
reamond forgot one important part to his post "By BOB TEDESCHI" NY Times....
Not important to the discussion here, unless you were stupid enough to think I wrote the article.
Probably both, IMHO...I do know that the First Amendment was successfully used in court by street book vendors in NYC when the city tried to force them off the street.
As for the Tedeschi reference, it was made by someone else....so the I won't take the "stupid" quip personally, other than to say that you really are a prick.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."- John Wayne/The Shootist"(from the novel by Glendon Swarthout)
posted on July 13, 2004 12:55:21 PM newHuH? Enlighten us,please.
The First Sale doctrine is what permits you to sell used copyrighted material, e.g., books.
OEM software, which is copyrighted, gets around the First Sale doctrine through a package/use contract. You agree by opening/using the software that you can not re-sell it, unless sold with the original PC.
Microsoft VEROs auctions all the time for selling OEM software.
I do know that the First Amendment was successfully used in court by street book vendors in NYC when the city tried to force them off the street.
I didn't know the government was trying to shut down Amazon's used book sales, I guess I'll re-read the article.
posted on July 14, 2004 06:17:25 AM new
So cutting and pasting someone else's work with giving them credit is ok with you reamond?
Do you steal descriptions and pictures to?
From seeing your posts here, I knew that you had not wrote that post... but you seem to like to take credit for others work... thought I would let the people know who really wrote that article..
Nothing wrong with discussing the article, however when a plagerizing thief like you comes into the fray... it brings the level down quite abit...
Of course your intelligence is limited to what you can copy from the internet, that is so very obvious from your posts...
posted on July 14, 2004 12:00:09 PM newNothing wrong with discussing the article, however when a plagerizing thief like you comes into the fray... it brings the level down quite abit...
I have plagerized nothing, and have not claimed anyone's work as my own.
You're also displaying traits on this board of a latent homosexual who hates himself.
Of course your intelligence is limited to what you can copy from the internet, that is so very obvious from your posts...
Well we can all see whose intellegence is limited here.
