posted on July 16, 2004 04:51:01 AM new
Okay, I know this subject has been approached before, but with sales being so slow I think it deserves another look at. I was surfing the jewelry listings this morning just to see what others are doing. Well, I guess it was to see HOW others are doing.
I try my hardest to not be misleading in my titles. 95% of the time I succeed. The other other 5% are those times where all the words don't fit in the title. I'm angry at those who 95% of the time use misleading descriptions in their titles, over charge for shipping and get tons of bids. If something is made from crystals, I use crystals in the title. I don't use Peridot, Amethyst, etc. in the title and then declare them Peridot "crystals" in the description. To me, that's misleading. However, they are getting bids this way. I charge the exact amount for shipping. Not $4.50 for shipping a $3.85 Priority box. I combine shipping. I don't charge an extra buck or two for other won items. More often than not, shipping cost is exactly on. Hardly ever is it over and sometimes it's under when I have to estimate. I eat that.
I've tried to be as honest as possible in my title, description and shipping costs and it has not gotten me very far. So, I'm considering joining those who are misleading because it seems that's what the bidders want. I'll start my auctions at 99 cents, make up the difference in shipping and tell little white lies in the title.
Geeze, I hate to go that far. Competition is very stiff in the jewelry department. I've been selling it for three years now and it's just getting worse. I'm not giving up, but rather considering giving in.
Won't someone please talk me out of it? Pleeeeeeeeze!
posted on July 16, 2004 05:11:30 AM new
I won't Cheryl. Make some money on your shipping when you can. This may sound harsh, but nobody cares if you're not making it or struggling. f/em. Do what you gotta do to stay afloat.
What the question is concerns honesty. How honest should be be in our titles or our shipping costs? Does it make a difference to bidders or do we pizz off people trying to do legitimate searches? Would you, as a bidder, rather place a bid with a seller who was honest and upfront or one who took some liberties with title descriptions and shipping? Just curious. I'm making it okay, just would like to be "making it" better is all.
posted on July 16, 2004 05:58:26 AM new
Well Cheryl, as a bidder I certainly would be miffed if I felt mislead...
I am more likely to blame myself for being stupid enough to buy something and get ripped-off. But if I didnt know I was mislead (and thats happened.,..lol) I was perfectly happy with the product. That doesnt make it right no way - but that is the way it falls for many people. And if I understand this right, you are trying to enhance your products description to say its 'like' something? Well, as long as you make it clear its like such-n-such but it is not such and such.
But you have to do what your conscience can bear. But if the competition is that brutal and so many are doing it I think your product gets lost in the 10,000 plus listings out there.
I am probably the wrong person to give you advice on this. I said I dont like sales as a profession. As far as I've surmised, there is always some manipulation to it, if not out-right conniving.
Why not experiment with little baby steps of it - different things and see how it goes for you?
I am sure you will get lots of opinions on this. I still say CYA.
posted on July 16, 2004 06:17:52 AM new
$4.50 for shipping a $3.85 priority box is not a bad mark up for handling costs... unless you walk to the PO and someone else packs the items for you.
I charge more than that for priority shipping and have never had a complaint.
Getting someone's attention to read your auction is the first step, if you need to be less specific in the title to get them to read your description, so be it, not a lie but not specific either.
If they are not looking inside they definately can't bid... you just be as specific as possible in the description.
posted on July 16, 2004 06:23:02 AM new
I tried the 99 cent route with high shipping. Boy, talk about confused people. I didn't sell 1 and the experiment was for 2 weeks back when things were selling good.
What's wrong with saying for ex- Peridot crystals if that is what they are. Or Peridot colored crystals to be more accurate. Think of it this way - if someone is looking for clear crystals, they have to read your description to find out they are not clear and are something else. Pretty annoying. These headers/headlines are ads in of themselves and the customer has to be buying in their mind when they open the item's page.
As a bidder too, I will not bid unless shipping is stated.
As a seller, we charge handling and make a few cents there too. We make even more now that we are using the PayPal shipping service with the USPS. Since we are selling low priced items every few cents helps. The 35 cents made on shipping pays for the listing etc.
And no matter what we do we can't please everyone, so do what is best to get the job done for you.
I don't know about your traffic, but this time of year can be really discouraging with sales. I've been doing what I think is the minimum, but this week I think I'll give a break til fall.
I guess what I'm saying is maybe a change in marketing strategy is good, but consider the season.
I tried the ridiculously low thing with making it up on shipping and it didn't work for me....but that's me, and I'm not jewelry.
Do you use "customer manager"? I don't, but do key into a 3rd party software, and when things get stale, I'll contact my previous buyers and say "hey, check this out!", and it usually revitalizes my sales for a while. If you treat your buyers well, they remember it and will consider you over other listings.
posted on July 16, 2004 06:52:48 AM new
Sorry, Cheryl. You're a nice person but you do have that occasional streak of mistaken self-righteousness. This is one of those times.
"CRYSTALS " takes up 9 spaces (including the trailing space) in the title. Since just about everyone understands that gemstone name words are also used as gemstone color words, no wonder sellers don't want to waste precious title space using a word that adds nothing to keyword searches.
It is perfectly acceptable to use the word "peridot" in a title and then explain in the description that the peridots are synthetic. There is nothing misleading about it. Do note that in eBay item specifics you can specify "peridot" and then choose what kind of peridot (synthetic, genuine, etc.). So eBay acknowledges that using a gemstone name word alone does not confer gemstone authenticity.
As far as charging for exact shipping goes, there seems to be a minority opinion that doing such qualifies one for sainthood. Certain it is, however, that it does NOT get you bids. A few days ago I was looking at the auctions of a seller who rants about others charging more than exact shipping to the extent that he puts the words NO-RIP SHIP in all his titles...then explains in the description that unlike his evil competitors, HE doesn't rip people off for shipping. For some reason this has not gotten bidders pounding down the virtual door to his store. I suspect that most just don't give a rip about his policy.
My opinion? (Remember, you asked.) The frustration you feel is the pain of knowing you have to change to remain competitive but you don't want to, so it's the fault of other jewelry sellers. If you're going to blame someone else, seems to be you should blame the bidders who are not buying from you.
--
(edited so as to make nice-nice)
[ edited by iareateacher on Jul 16, 2004 06:57 AM ]
posted on July 16, 2004 07:08:08 AM new
Cheryl, you should value your time and add a little to your shipping beyond actual postage. I add about a dollar, which still leaves me wrapping and taping for minimum wage. EVERY business in the country does this.
I can't speak from experience as a seller, but I have bought some jewelry on eBay. I have always admired Fluffy's "low start/make it up in shipping" business plan. As long as eBay doesn't have problems with evading the FVF and buyers' accept the idea , why not?
Of course buyers would SAY that they prefer to buy from sellers that are honest and upfront, but it looks like in the jewelry category they are more likely to click on an attractive title with a low starting bid than an honest one with a realistic starting price.
I wouldn't out and out lie in my title but I would do whatever it took to get people to look at my auctions. If they don't look they can't buy! I would think that the description should be honest and upfront.
It seems that many of the jewelry sellers start s/h at $5.00. If that is the category norm, then you probably won't get too many balkers. Just make sure your s/h is clearly stated and also your combined shipping policies.
posted on July 16, 2004 07:26:26 AM new
Hi Cheryl,
I agree with you one hundred percent. I sell only gems and spend a great deal of time and effort to list them correctly and photograph them accurately. It just plain sucks that some sellers use blatantly misleading titles and descriptions. There are a lot of sapphire auctions at the moment that just say heated when they should (according to AGTA and GIA guidelines) disclose beryllium heat treatment.
Teacher, two words. KEYWORD SPAMMING. I know that when I am searching for peridot, that is exactly what I want to show up in my search. Not some cheap cruddy dime a dozen glass beads.
posted on July 16, 2004 07:47:32 AM new
Adrian, the word PERIDOT in popular usage is a color as well as a gemstone.
I don't know how to make this any clearer to you, except than by example.
If I am shopping for a cotton sweater, and the manufacturer has labelled his purple ones "aubergine", should I expect that what I am buying is actually an eggplant?
(Aubergine is the French word for eggplant.)
I think most reasonable people understand (without even thinking about it hard) that English words have multiple meanings and usages and that usages evolve.
Edited to add:
You'll love it when Item Specifics are made mandatory for all auctions. Then you can search on "peridot" and "genuine" without having to get into title issues. THEN (and only then) will it be an issue of sellers misrepresenting the goods.
--
[ edited by iareateacher on Jul 16, 2004 07:49 AM ]
posted on July 16, 2004 07:53:35 AM new
Good morning everyone,
Cheryl,
First off, your energy is wasted being angry because of what other sellers are doing. It's better spent refining your business plan.
Twelvepole and Neglus are right on target. If they don't look they won't bid.
I've not seen your auctions but it could be you need to rethink the keywords you're using in your title. I often find auctions that are mis-titled. Not misleading - just missing the right keywords. I've built my fall inventory mostly by searching for these auctions.
On the shipping issue, you need to at least cover your materials cost. If I'm sending something first class, I charge more than the exact postage. For example, if the item weighs 4 ounces packed, I charge $1.25. Actual postage is $1.06. The 19 cents pays for the envelope, tissue, ribbon, etc. If it's going in a bubble mailer I charge $1.50 because the mailer is more expensive than a manila envelope. I don't mark up Priority shipments.
It might not work for you or for me but Fluffy's business plan apparently works well for her. Evidently her buyers don't mind paying a rather high price for S/H because the cost of the jewelry is very low.
posted on July 16, 2004 08:15:09 AM new
I'm doing what Lucy is doing with 1st-class shipping. And most of the time, when selling books, I charge extra for at least the cost of the bubble envelope, in most cases.
I want to second what others have said here. This is July! Sales aren't as good as they could be in the summer for most of us. I've been feeling a bit discouraged this month, too, and have made a note on my calendar for next year to take July off.
I think the month of July sucks. It's the month of the biting yellow flies up here in the mountains; it's hot; the sun beats down directly on my wilting plants. It ain't June, it ain't August (when we can look forward to cooler September weather). It's just a stupid month named, I believe, for Julius Caesar.
___________________________________
"Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same, but better."
- Sidney J Harris
posted on July 16, 2004 09:07:53 AM new
On the shipping issue I charge $2.50 on Media Mail and $2.75 on First Class and $1.00 extra on each item added to the order. I never have a complaint on shipping. We make our own boxes for media mail which we get box lids from the stores we shop at. For First Class I mainly use Bubble Mailers. Priority I charge exact. Currently I start all my auctions at the same figure and let the items be bid up. Even though I have sellers starting auctions at below what I am,I'm still out selling most of them.
posted on July 16, 2004 09:49:18 AM new
Adrian, I gave your posting some further thought (incredible as that might seem) and I think there's a bit of wanting eBay to be what it is not.
Case in point: If you want genuine certified gemstone peridots you know where to get them. They will cost you more than they would on eBay; that's true of most things these days.
Shoot, I'd like a few Tiffany pieces for myself. Do I dare buy them on eBay where fakes are rampant? No; I'll go to Tiffany's retail store where I'll pay full freight but at least can be certain of what I'm getting.
posted on July 16, 2004 10:12:59 AM new
I love the opinions on this board. They are both varied and informative. I probably should not post first thing in the morning after I've had to empty yet another stray cat out of my raccoon trap in the backyard! LOL! The raccoon is killing my 100+ year old tree in the back by peeling the bark. Don't worry, it's a humane trap and the raccoon will be set free in the park even if it is against the law. He'll die in the city probably from someone poisoning him.
Back to the topic. I think I will add a small handling fee to my shipping. That will at least cover the materials (bubble wrap, popcorn, etc.). I still hate it when I'm looking for something in particular and have to wade through hundreds of irrelevant auctions. If it's Victorian style, I state Victorian style (or Victorian St when there's not enough room). I admit, that I sometimes have trouble condensing my titles. As you can probably tell, I can be quite long-winded. At least those on the RT board know that. LOL!
iareateacher
The word Peridot, Amethyst, etc. has been used such as: Genuine Peridot, Amethyst, etc. Then, you get to the description and it states genuine Peridot crystals. I'm looking for a Peridot necklace. A real one. Not a crystal one. It would be nice not to have to wade through those that are not only listed in the fine jewelry categories (not fashion category) but use descriptive words like Genuine Peridot in the title. That is what I was looking for this morning. I decided instead to save myself time and aggravation by visiting a small shop we have here near work and bought a perfectly lovely one. Although I have bought some lovely genuine stones on eBay sometimes it's better to see them in person.
posted on July 16, 2004 10:38:54 AM new
I agree with part of what iareateacher said:
[quote]...It is perfectly acceptable to use the word "peridot" in a title and then explain in the description that the peridots are synthetic. There is nothing misleading about it.[/quote]
and:
[quote]The frustration you feel is the pain of knowing you have to change to remain competitive but you don't want to...[/quote]
I also agree with pelorus that adding a dollar to shipping for your handling expense/additional profit is appropriate.
This next statement is not directed at you or anyone else in particualr: Many of those who do not charge additional fees over the actual shipping in this "garage sale" priced venue have never successfully run a brick & mortar business for any length of time. (I sold my last B&M after 18 years of success in 1998 for a very tidy sum) Many small business owners fail to fully calculate all their expenses.
In Ebay selling, especially with prices falling into non-viability, believe that there should be an additional $1.00 handling charge added to base postage for the first item, and $1.00 for each additional item(on small items that don't change the weight of the package). Charges should be made very clear in the item description.
No company I buy from online ships the item at the exact shipping cost, and I buy a LOT online. We will always have buyers and/or sellers that self righteously are angered at being charged handling. Cheryl, I do not believe you fit in that category.
Any business owner has to correct the wrong-headedness promoted by some that it's not okay to make big fat or even reasonable profits, in fact, some promote it as dishonest.
They have never tried running a service company in that fashion with 7 employees and owing the IRS $75,000 in back payroll taxes bacuuse your principle business partner wanted to be "fair" to the customers and give them a "great deal" and felt uncomfortable charging more. The partners took home less pay than the employees.
Hidden expenses were not calculated, and not enough profit was being made to be viable. I wrested away the reins, raised prices about 20%, paid the IRS and sold the business 2 years later, as I said, for a nice amount. And all my customers remained loyal to me after the price increase! We had established ourselves as honest, reliable, and technically accurate. Obviously, eBay is a different animal, but lessons learned can be applied here as well.
MAH645 was spot-on with:
[quote]On the shipping issue I charge $2.50 on Media Mail and $2.75 on First Class and $1.00 extra on each item added to the order. I never have a complaint on shipping.[/quote]
Cheryl, it is obvious you are an honest seller trying to do the right thing. Yes, charge more than the actual shipping. Yes, get them to look at your items with a competitive and appropriate title. Clearly explain early in the description what it actually is.
posted on July 16, 2004 12:36:09 PM new
Thanks, Patty. I actually started this rant after I, as a buyer, was looking for a particular item this morning. Then I thought, do I want to cause this headache for anyone else or do I want to make a buck? Well, after giving it some thought and going over the stack of bills - I want to make more than a buck gosh darn it. LOL! I often wonder how people who charge a flat shipping rate do it. Do they take an average of what shipping would be among the various items they sell? I sell more than jewelry so I think a flat rate wouldn't fit. I suppose I can do a flat rate for jewelry. It might be worth my thinking about before the busy season hits - right around November.
iareateacher
Aren't we all a bit self-righteous from time-to-time?
When I sell small items, let's say, like jewelry, I charge a flat rate. On the onesies - twosies oddballl items, I box with full packing materials and weigh to see the rate, then list. PIA, but necessary so I don't underestimate shipping.
posted on July 16, 2004 03:21:07 PM new
You didn't use the word "genuine" in your original post. A minor transgression, but I'm sure lots of people have had second thoughts about their postings lately, so with that I present:
The I WISH I HADN'T POSTED THAT Form
1. That wasn't really what I meant at all, because:
a) I've been mixing prescription drugs with alcohol again -- before breakfast
b) What I thought was coffee at 6 am turned out to be liquid black shoe polish
c) I've had half a day to sample the prevailing winds and opinion is going against me
2. I'm really a nice person so don't stop talking to me, because if you do:
a) I'll have to make eye contact with Brenda the Bruiser, the 400 lb secretary/lesbian in the cubicle across the hall.
b) My boss will realize that all this typing is not exactly...um...work.
c) I might be tempted to go ogle that cute VP down the hall who, unfortunately, is much too young for me. Sigh.
3. If you all will forgive me, I promise to:
a) Ooh and aah over all your garage sale finds and assure you they're worth a lot of money
b) Post the ultimate Chocolate Chip Cookie recipe right here in the eBay Outlook (no one reads the Round Table, you know)
c) Bid on all your auctions
posted on July 16, 2004 03:38:14 PM new
Teacher,
Yes, the word peridot can be used to describe a colour. You just happened to miss my point. To take your Tiffany example.
If you walk in and ask to see their rubies. Will they wheel out 400 trays of stock ranging from synthetic ruby to ruby swarovski crystals. No! They will bring you exactly what you asked for, rubies. With the extended titles and subtitles there is no excuse for BS misleading titles. The more honest sellers of synthetics seem to have no trouble putting the word lab in their titles. Justify it to yourself any way you want, it is still misleading. Maybe it's ok to bend the truth just a little bit. It is only a little lie right? No one will mind searching through 4000 items when there are actually only 500 that are actually what you searched for in the first place. Of course they mind. If a seller is lying in their title can you trust their descriptions? Probably not!
Regards,
Adrian
posted on July 16, 2004 03:48:23 PM newNo! They will bring you exactly what you asked for, rubies.
Actually, I think I made my point.
Yes, Tiffany's will bring me what I ask for.
It is, however, a fine retail establishment that adheres to its own standards. eBay is no such animal; it's the world's biggest garage sale with perhaps hundreds of thousands of sellers.
You are indeed expecting eBay to be what it is not. I can never "get" why people do this. If the creature is a rhinoceros, why wish it to be a gazelle and get frustrated when it doesn't leap gracefully?
posted on July 16, 2004 03:55:27 PM new
Teacher, you are right about ebay being a garage sale. However because we cannot actually see and handle the goods we are forced to rely on the seller being honest. I suppose the only useful thing about misleading titles is it separates the crooks from the genuine sellers quickly. If you are selling something peridot coloured, put that in the title. Or put Peridot and then the name of the actual item. Just don't lie. It is interesting to note the position you are taking in all this discussion.
Regards,
Adrian
I have no idea what your attitude problem is with me, but I'll not make it my problem. I'll leave it be yours. You come here with all of 81 posts to your name and then treat everyone like they're idiots. I think the only person on the eBay board that has given out attitude and we all still love her for it is fluffy. There is only one fluffythewondercat!
Why would I have had to mention "genuine" in my original post? The word is used as an example of how misleading some titles are and isn't that the discussion here? And yes, I have seen titles say Genuine _____ only to have them be synthetic (or lab-created) in the description just as Adrian pointed out.
posted on July 16, 2004 04:45:56 PM new
Hi Cheryl,
Wow this is fun!
Teacher, I simply described the actions of dishonest sellers and mentioned that I do not agree with their methods. It is fine by me if you do agree with their methods. I lose no sleep either way. I will continue to list my stock accurately and honestly in title, description and photo. That is my choice. I am sure that you will continue to do things just way you already do.
Regards,
Adrian
Ya, you get used to it once you've posted on the RT board enough times! This isn't anything compared to what you can get into over there. Love it anyway!
I'm glad you'll continue listing honestly. I tried to do it the other way and couldn't. That's just me, I suppose. However, I will take people up on their shipping suggestions.
posted on July 16, 2004 05:12:21 PM new
Hi Cheryl,
I have looked in on the round table a couple times. It looked a lot like lunch time in the school yard. With major factions and minor factions, tit for tat, and hey leave my friend alone. Entertaining but not my cup of tea. For the most part I am non confrontational. That isn't to say I won't stand up for myself, just that I won't get into an argument for the sake of arguing. I do like a good debate as long as my opponent can be objective. Once they get emotional it gets boring fast.
About the shipping, getting paid for your time is not ripping people off. I pack my items very carefully, I have never had one arrive damaged. But it is time consuming to provide that level of service. I would be hard pressed to pack and send more than about 30 parcels in a day. I am not going to do a days work without being paid for my time. The normal approach is to list the cost as shipping AND handling. If you say actual postage you can expect people to get grumpy if it isn't actual postage. Once again this is only my opinion and what works for me.
Regards,
Adrian
posted on July 16, 2004 06:03:33 PM new
Three times I wanted to post to this thread...but I say don't give in.
Keep your integrity in tact AND list colors of beads as they are listed by the manufacturer.
If it's chinese crystal, then I don't know what their nomenclature is, but Swarovski does use: sapphire, garnet, peridot etc.
Firepolished crystal is not crystal, but beaders see this name all the time. It's cheap czech glass.
