posted on July 1, 2005 08:52:39 AM new
Hi All, (LOOOOONG Explanation, then request for advice follows....)
First of all, please bear in mind my Ebay selling has a tremendous rate of regular, repeat high bidders and up 'till now, thru 8 years I've only had one NPB and that for less than $35 - I've had a few slow-payers, but fortunately never had to deal regularly with NPB's as many of you have to do on a regular basis.
I only sell my tiny woodturned miniatures on Ebay to the doll house and shadow/room box collectors and have a huge repeat bidder base (over 1400 cumulative feedback with only 282 behind my gallerybminiatures UID, so the bulk of my biz consists of repeat buyers).
Back in late April, I noticed a new bidder placing exhorbitantly high proxy bids on my auctions. Generally, when I take a quick look at the feedback of the new bidders who trickle in, usually 1 or 2 a week, I see where they have usually purchased numerous miniature items on Ebay from other sellers, but not this guy. No history whatsoever for any miniature collectibles and his feedback concerns me (25 negs for nonpayment over the last 12 months, but as he has over 2000 positives, I leave his bids stand on the first round of my auctions and give him the benefit of the doubt since he has a mix of glowing positives coupled with the 25 NPB negs, almost Jekyl/Hide like).
I check his bidding history for the last 30 days and grow alarmed at thousands of dollars in high bids on collectibles (looks a bit like a compulsive bidder who has good intentions but overbids more than he can pay and then isn't honest with sellers), coupled with the 25 negs, almost all for NPB (he always responds with something like "Sent payment, please send merchandise or refund." Or some such ilk, clearly a pattern.
Anyway, he gets 6 of my high bids and promptly pays. The next week, he consumes half of my weekly Ebay "paycheck" and I get zero response from him for days. Finally, he pays and after I politely notify him if I don't receive payment I'll have to remove his current high bids on my new auctions since Ebay is my "paycheck" and I can't leave him run up another $300 with zero response to invoices/polite emails (however silly it may sound to you, because his proxy bids are outrageously high for what I have up, I had grown concerned anyway - $98.98 for a little 5/8" tall Dymondwood Vase? Hey, I'm good woodturner, but any sane mini collector will attest to the fact that $100 for a little "common" wood vase like that is a tad ridiculous). Though he does pay me for the previous auctions, he scarfs up almost all of my weekly Ebay "paycheck" on the next round and...
Sure enough, post-auction, he's in to me for hundreds of dollars in high bids on my auctions. Two days before the auctions end, he emails me some chatty BS about having to be at the hospital with a relative who "woke up with a torn aorta" (he doesn't realize he's BS'ing a seller who happens to be a retired research psychologist who spent decades working in medical clinical trials for development of new drugs, so I well know you don't just "wake up" with a "torn aorta", so I know he's BS'ing me, which fits with the BS he fed sellers back last September when he picked up a ton of NPB negs/strikes and claimed he was rehabing in a "nursing home" from a "near fatal" car accident (used his feedback responses to try to put guilt trips on the sellers who neg'ed him for nonpayment).
I send him back a polite, diplomatic, firmly worded email informing him that as he found time to place outrageously high bids on my new auctions, he had sufficient Internet access to PayPal me the hundreds of dollars he already owed me (he was also bidding on other seller's collectibles all along while subsequently ignoring my emails/invoices after the critically ill family member BS email).
I gave him two more days to pay, then went over and removed all of his high bids from my auctions, listing nonpayment of previous high bids as the reason (at which time I could see his proxy bids, which were again ludicrously high - he couldn't possibly have been outbid by any sane mini collector) and blocked him from bidding on my auctions again.
Even though I figured he was lying about the critically ill relative, remembering how I suddenly ended up having emergency surgery with hundreds of $$$ in high bids outstanding on my auctions (working one day, in ICU the next) and remembering how gracious my buyers were through that back in early 2001, I guess I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt even when my instinct tells me to do otherwise (but I think this jerk cured me of that character "flaw".
Somehow, in the midst of moving into our new home and keeping up with my turning business which extends considerably further than just Ebay, I lost track of time, stupid on my part for sure, and let the 45 day window to file NPB strikes close (my underbidders on the auctions he burned me on all bought the items 6 weeks later). I know it was mega-stupid of me to let that window close, but he's only the second NPB I've ever had in 8 years and I guess I'm just not used to dealing with NPBs, which is no excuse when you're running a business, I realize that now.
That's the last I heard from this deadbeat until this week, when he tries to claim to Ebay he paid me and I never sent the items, following his usual pattern when he doesn't pay a seller (Ebay demanded HE, the buyer, provide proof of payment, which amazed me since I assumed Ebay would take the bidder's side automatically). Using the # I got when I stumbled into powerseller status, I call Ebay and the rep adamantly insists the buyer will have to submit proof to Ebay he paid me, which he can't do cause he never did (when I got the contact from this jerk through Ebay requesting a "shipping date", I immediately resent the unpaid PayPal invoice, both to him and to Ebay - I also reported him for an inappropriate email, that is, requesting shipment of items for which he never paid - in my book, that's an inappropriate use of Ebay's email system).
I hang up the phone rather pleasantly surprised that, for once, Ebay actually acts in a manner favorable to the seller, having also informed me that if I get feedback which is clearly retaliatory in nature form this jerk - since he put himself in the position of having to prove to Ebay he paid me by having deceitfully claimed non-shipment on my part for items he "sent payment" for - I guess Ebay promised to review and remove the negative feedback I'm sure to get from him if it is clearly retaliatory in nature because he initiated it with Ebay and now won't be able to prove what he alleged - you'll note he did it after the 45 day NPB strike window had closed, clever lad. Did he forget we have 90 days for feedback? And, no, I'm not leaving all those negs at the same time so they all scroll off the front page of his feedback all at once - I've still got 5 weeks before the 90 day feedback window closes, so I'll leave them one at a time, periodically, so they stay on his front feedback page a while.
Bottom line, is there anything else I can do with Ebay - I not trying to get fees back on the default auctions since every, single one of my under-bidders bought the items (I didn't offer them 'till 6 weeks of nonpayment) - to get this jerk dealt with? His history, feedback and otherwise, clearly shows a pattern of over-bidding and then just ignoring invoices/emails and only paying I guess for the items he got that he really, really wants more the ones he can't pay for. He always leaves retaliatory negs/responses to NPB negs with the "I paid, never shipped, thief" sort of responses.
I guess you've all figured out by now that I have a flawless 8 year feedback history on Ebay as both a buyer and seller, with not even a single neutral. I can't sit by and not neg the guy to save my pristine feedback history - I just can't do that, but neither do I believe the Ebay rep that Ebay would likely remove any clearly retaliatory negative feedback from my history after a thorough review - I know it darn near takes an act of Congress or court order to remove feedback unless buyer and seller mutually agree to do so, so I put zero credence in what the Ebay rep told me about that.
Anyway, when you stupidly let the NPB strike 45 day time period elapse, is there any other way to get Ebay to investigate this jerk? I'm assuming Ebay only has the 45 day NPB window to limit their responsibility for fee credits, yes? It's not the fee credit I want, I want Ebay to investigate this jerk's history of over-bidding beyond what he can pay EVERY MONTH and then stiffing the unfortunate sellers. That's what gives his feedback history such a Jekyl-Hyde flavor, it's either mega-kudos and raves for "super fast payment" or really, really negative for nonpayment and nonresponse to seller contact.
I'd appreciate any advice. I was fortunate enough that I didn't lose all the money - my second-in-line bidders bought the items, but I plan to tighten up the way I handle my business after this. I've already changed my invoice wording and that in my boilerplate auction copy regarding payment stipulations (not Gestapo-like - I just spelled out some things I've never had to because of my huge base of regular buyers).
Thanks for the time of anyone who graciously mucked through my whole mini-series on this NPB jerk.
posted on July 1, 2005 09:24:37 AM new
"I guess you've all figured out by now that I have a flawless 8 year feedback history on Ebay as both a buyer and seller, with not even a single neutral. I can't sit by and not neg the guy to save my pristine feedback history - I just can't do that, but neither do I believe the Ebay rep that Ebay would likely remove any clearly retaliatory negative feedback from my history after a thorough review - I know it darn near takes an act of Congress or court order to remove feedback unless buyer and seller mutually agree to do so, so I put zero credence in what the Ebay rep told me about that."
You can just about 100% expect retalitory NEGS from this pretzel-choker -- you can slso expect that feeBay will NOT remove the negs for close to ANY reason...
ADVICE:
1) BLOCK him...
2) MOVE ON...
As Ralphie notes philosophically: "Bush happens..."
"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the Mother in me."—Guess Who? Washington D.C., April 14, 2005
posted on July 1, 2005 09:32:01 AM new
Thanks, Tom. I blocked him when I canceled his last high bids a while back. I figured the Ebay rep was blowing smoke about removing purely retaliatory negs - since most of the honest sellers on Ebay would have zero negs/neutrals if Ebay really did remove purely, obviously retaliatory negs.
Didn't figure there was anything else I could do - except learn and never forget a very hard lesson for future dealings. But I thought I'd ask since I've had to deal with this kind of thing so rarely over my 8 year tenure.
you certainly were patient with this person! DON'T leave the negs first. (never leave fb first). yes, you have 90 days at least to leave a neg...but it also opens a 90-day window for your "buyer" to neg you back. maybe they'll just go away and you'll luck out and they won't neg you. but if you start it first, they're almost sure to neg, since they've done it before.
so...a year from now, you'll be sitting there thinking "gee, i really wish i hadn't done that." it's not worth it. of the 4 negs i have from over the years, 2 were my own fault and 2 were retaliatory - when i was young and stupid on ebay, i left 2 negs for NPBs. sure enough, they negged me back. the FVF route is a lot more satisfying in the long run.
posted on July 1, 2005 10:36:18 AM new
Thanks for the info, vintage... Here's kinda what I'm thinking of doing. On the telly yesterday, the Ebay rep reiterated that there is a 90 day limit to leave feedback. It occurred to me at the time, if I were to leave the very appropriate negs at the "12th hour", so to speak, just minutes before the 90 day feedback window slams shut, the NPB jerk couldn't retaliate, I guess he could still respond, but that would be on his feedback history, not mine. It's a thought <mischievous, quirky smile emerges>.
posted on July 1, 2005 10:37:36 AM new
I agree you should block him and move on - you are quite lucky in 8 years this is the first time you have to deal with this - it's happened to me twice in 6 years. I believe in leaving NPB feedback to warn other sellers. You know he will probably neg you back - and Ebay won't remove it. But that is how the system works. If we don't leave negs when deserved this guy will just keep on doing this. I'd like to think this will eventually get him kicked off.
posted on July 1, 2005 10:51:14 AM new
filing for FVFs gets them removed a lot faster and with less "risk" to me than leaving a neg does - only takes FVF refunds to 3 different sellers and poof! they're gone. (unless they're clever enough to reinvent themselves with a new id, new cc, new e'mail address, etc.) every once in awhile, when i'm updating my bbl and i'm bored, i'll go randomly type in some of the user i.d.'s...most of them won't show any negs at all, and yet they were NARU'ed ,no doubt for being deadbeat bidders or for exhibiting some of the same "behavioral problems" that they exhibited with me. i think of myself as fairly easy-going, and people have to work hard to get on my blocked bidder list. but ebay makes it easy from the standpoint that - once FVFs are granted - they offer an option to add a person to the bbl. one click and it's done. http://stores.ebay.com/postcardspostcards
posted on July 1, 2005 10:59:28 AM new
"I'd like to think this will eventually get him kicked off."
I agree, it's why I have to leave the negs even though it means I'll get burned in retaliation unless I can manage to leave them at the last second, just before the 90 day window on feedback closes. (There will be a bunch of the negs tho' only 1 will count, because in a single weekend, he scarfed up almost all of my weekly Ebay "paycheck" with nonpayment ... at least until I was able to sell everything to my regular bidders who were second-in-line on those auctions 6 weeks later).
It would have had more impact if I hadn't stupidly lost track of time and let the NPB strike 45 day window slam shut though. In addition to the several NPB strikes/negs he'd already gotten from other sellers during that time period, I would like to hope if I'd kept up and filed my NPB strikes, too, for all the auctions he defaulted on, that it would have gotten Ebay's attention (or do they just count one strike when it is multiple auctions from the same seller during a single auction "cycle"?
While I don't expect anything to come of it (like him getting the boot or even a 30 day suspension), a little while ago I did get confirmation that Ebay is apparently investigating, demanding he provide proof of his allegation he payed, which surprises the heck out of me. I think if he does get the boot or an account suspension it will be rather hilarious in the sense that he instigated it all himself by claiming to Ebay that he never received items for which he paid (Duh? He didn't realize Ebay owns PayPal and only has to have a peek at my history to ascertain the invoice, which I resent yesterday morning after the email through Ebay he sent asking for a ship date, still remains unpaid ... and he sure can't produce a canceled check, money order or cashier's check 'cause I never received anything.
As another poster noted, I was patient, too patient I now know, but that was then, this is now. I just got through sending a very politely worded email to a new high bidder who wants to accumulate auction purchases from me to ship all at once to save on shipping costs - yep, sure, but you MUST pay for your high bids at the end of each auction cycle, then notify me when you want me to ship.(It's pretty cheap to mail miniature turnings in little 35mm plastic film cannisters, so lots of my regulars do that and have me mail once a month, BUT they pay for their auction totals weekly).
posted on July 1, 2005 11:06:24 AM new
<:::slapping self upside head:::>
You are absolutely correct, Vintage. If I had not lost track of time and had filed the FVRs (there were a bunch of them for hundreds of $$$ in a single auction cycle for me), judging from his feedback negs for nonpayment, I think I would've have been the third seller to do so (FVRs) in a 30 day period. I really goofed up, big-time. It won't ever happen again, that's for sure.
I blocked him immediately when I canceled his oustanding high bids he'd put on my new auctions (gee, he could be online bidding, to add insult to financial loss, on MY new auctions no less and ignore my invoices and emails for his high bids the previous week, whatta piece of work). I was floored at the outrageously high amount of his proxy bids which were of course revealed when I canceled his high bids. As I said in my initial post on the thread, no sane miniature collector would have bid those amounts on the items no matter how badly they wanted one or more of my turnings. It was very strange.
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