cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 01:56:38 PM new
I'm selling this for someone else. It belonged to her father, but she doesn't know where he got it. Can anyone ID the tribe? I know it's not antique. I believe it's wool, but I'm not sure. The blue is really a deep navy. Someone hand sewed a strip for hanging it on the wall. Could have been done by where ever he purchased this. I just don't want to commit any listing faux pas.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Mar 25, 2008 01:57 PM ]
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mamachia
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posted on March 25, 2008 02:31:25 PM new
Hi Cheryl,
If you can pull a fiber from it then you can give the fiber the burn test. Light it by match or whatever, if it smells like hair then it is wool. I don't know about the tribe. sorry,
Mama
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zippy2dah
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posted on March 25, 2008 02:38:15 PM new
I think it's Mexican. Zapotec.
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zippy2dah
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posted on March 25, 2008 02:43:52 PM new
Or maybe not, lol. Sorry. I know it's familiar I just can't figure out why.
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cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 02:48:14 PM new
Zippy - I don't think it's Mexican.
It must be wool. I'm allergic to wool and the minute I touch this to my face, I start to itch.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Mar 25, 2008 03:21 PM ]
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shagmidmod
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posted on March 25, 2008 03:23:53 PM new
I would take a good guess and say Navajo as well. I've had rugs similar in style and spent a year one day in the Navajo Reservation. Looks Navajo to me.
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cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 03:53:07 PM new
I thought Navajo. The fringe is throwing me, though. Most Navajo does not have fringe. Unlike the Mexican ones I have, there's no hemming where the fringe is. I emailed an expert and I hope to hear from her with her opinion. I'd hate to list it as something it's not.
Cheryl
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zippy2dah
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posted on March 25, 2008 03:55:44 PM new
What do you mean by "hemming where the fringe is?"
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cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 03:58:24 PM new
I mean the rug is folded over at the end. This one is not. However, my Mexican one is a horse blanket so I guess that would be made differently. Boy is that one scratchy!!
Cheryl
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rhpepsi
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posted on March 25, 2008 04:00:17 PM new
Could it be from the Chimayó area??? Down in New Mexico.
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zippy2dah
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posted on March 25, 2008 04:02:53 PM new
Thanks I get it now.
I have Mexican blankets with both types of finishing, some hemmed and some unhemmed.
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cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 04:04:29 PM new
pepsi - You might be right. I'm looking at some from there and they look close. And, they have fringe. Are those Native American or considered Mexican?
Cheryl
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rhpepsi
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posted on March 25, 2008 04:17:56 PM new
Chimayó is located 40 miles south of Taos and 24 miles northeast of Santa Fe, about ten miles east of Espanola in the Sangre de Cristo mountains. ..... NEW MEXICO, USA
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roadsmith
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posted on March 25, 2008 05:33:25 PM new
Cheryl: I bought a couple of nice old rugs from New Mexico, from a neighbor whose father had a grocery store in Albuquerque. She thought they might be Navajo but wasn't sure. There's an unevenness to handmade rugs; if yours looks too perfect, it may be more recent. Do you have the provenance on it--how many years old it possible could be, or where the man got the rug, how long he had it?
I used to know a lot about Rug Stuff--what dyes the tribes actually HAD and which ones they never had. Most of that's out of my head now.
The fringe on the two old rugs I have hanging in our house is a bit uneven and even missing in a couple of places; it's short, perhaps two inches long at most, and looks and feels homespun.
If I wanted to sell this on eBay, I'd do one of two things: (1) either take the rug to an expert and learn more, or (2) sell it as a wool rug, X numbers of years old, probably SW Indian or Mexican--with closer closeups of the weave and of the fringe.
_____________________
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rhpepsi
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posted on March 25, 2008 06:13:22 PM new
like roadsmith says...it could be a recent version...checkout this site...
http://www.ruginternational.com/southwestern_rugs.htm
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cblev65252
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posted on March 25, 2008 07:46:06 PM new
I got an answer from an expert it is Chimayo, but 1940's not recent. The 1940's date is in accord with the person I'm selling it for.
Thanks all!
Cheryl
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profe51
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posted on March 26, 2008 05:59:03 AM new
oops, too late...it's Chimayo. Very few Navajo rugs are fringed. Also cheryl, please don't list it as an indian rug. Chimayo weavers are hispanic, not indian.
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cblev65252
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posted on March 26, 2008 07:41:31 AM new
Wouldn't think of it, prof. Here's an interesting thing I did find out from the expert that would be good for future reference: "It is thought the the Navajo learned to herd sheep and use wool from these people and other groups who settled in the Rio Grande Valley so these are often confused with Navajo rugs."
Cheryl
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shagmidmod
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posted on March 26, 2008 07:50:51 AM new
Are you saying I'm confused??? LOL.
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ST0NEC0LD613
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posted on March 26, 2008 08:25:23 AM new
NA Rug.
I thought this was going to be another NARU thread.
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profe51
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posted on March 26, 2008 08:28:28 AM new
The Navajo got sheep from the Spanish, they probably learned to weave from the Pueblo indians, the Zuni, Hopi and Rio Grande pueblos, as Navajo looms are upright hand looms like those used by the indians, while the Spanish looms are flat treadle style, similar to the handlooms commonly used today.
If that Chimayo you have is really dated to the 40's and doesn't have any moth holes in it, it'll have some good value. Did your expert check the warp strings? Old Chimayos will have wool warp strings, while some modern ones have cotton warp. You can check it yourself by gently pulling the weft apart at a corner and looking at the warp. If it's white and looks like kite string, it's cotton....pretty easy to tell.
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cblev65252
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posted on March 26, 2008 09:50:44 AM new
Nope. No cotton. Unfortunately, there are a few very tiny holes. I couldn't see them until I held the rug to the light.
Thanks, Prof, for your information. I love learning new things. I wish these rugs and blankets were worth as much as the NA ones. They're just as beautiful and just as well made. They deserve far more recognition than they get.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Mar 26, 2008 10:08 AM ]
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profe51
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posted on March 26, 2008 11:12:48 AM new
They can still sell pretty well, although I've seen them languish on Ebay. Phony Navajo rugs made in Mexico bringing top dollar while good Chimayos go begging.
I have a 1947 Chimayo throw that size that has an appraisal of 1500 .
I had an old Navajo saddle blanket that used to live in the back seat of my old pickup. The dogs slept on it back there, dirty, greasy and was so full of holes that it looked like somebody'd shot it with a 12 gauge. As a joke I put it on Ebay with a fanciful disclaimer filled writeup of how it might have been worn by a Navajo princess and might have graced the floor of a famous Santa Fe saloon and didn't have any holes in it unless you counted the ones that it had and maybe it was just a worn out old Messican blanket how should I know I'm not an expert all sales final. Lots of pics, including one holding it up to the sun to show the "lack" of holes. It brought 197 dollars.....ah, the good old days.
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herbscraftsgifts
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posted on March 27, 2008 09:28:03 AM new
If you want to add some info about Chimayo do a search on Good Friday in Chimayo and also the Santuario de Chimayo ( the chapel with the healing dirt from a hole that does not get any bigger.) Anyone who is visited there has good memories and may want a remembrance.
I have seen alot of weavings from there that have been jackets, too. They are also famous for their apples.
Rancho de Chimayo cocktail - Creme de cassis, Tequila and Apple Cider. Serve in Martini glass with an appple slice. Yummy.
Louise (NM resident for over 35 years)
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roadsmith
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posted on March 27, 2008 10:08:44 AM new
Ah, more "facts" are popping into my conscious brain. I think it is the Navajos who deliberately make one error in each woven item to show (maybe) that we're all human, or maybe to appease a god.
_____________________
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birgittaw
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posted on March 27, 2008 10:34:36 AM new
Perhaps you're thinking of Amish quilts, where there is a common conception that every one has a sightly different block, since only God is perfect. I don't know that it's true, but I hear it a lot.
Or you may be thinking of "lazy lines." Here is a really good schematic for telling a real from a fake Navajo.
http://www.navajorugrepair.com/fake.htm
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zippy2dah
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posted on March 27, 2008 10:34:55 AM new
That's the spirit line.
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profe51
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posted on March 27, 2008 04:42:32 PM new
Not all Navajo weavings have spirit lines, and lots don't have lazy lines. I have many that don't have either. Old ones, relatively new ones too. Neither is definitive, it depends on the weaver and her mood at the moment. I have some rugs that include a spirit line, and others from the same weaver that don't. One weaver who did a large dining table sized rug for the ranch here in exchange for sheep told me that lots of weavers only include the spirit line because they think white collectors expect them and they aren't of any significance to the weavers themselves. As far as lazy lines are concerned, I always consider them exactly what they're called. They're weaving faults. A good rug doesn't have any.
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buyhigh
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posted on March 28, 2008 04:11:01 PM new
Navajo rugs have no fringe so this one is not Navajo. They use a horizontal type loom with a flying shuttle and Yes the residents of Chimayo are Hispanic. The shop in Chimayo that sells these rugs or did when I lived in that area is Ortegas. They wove everything from jackets to rugs to seat covers then. I still have a small table cover with gray background- 100% wool.
buyhigh
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buyhigh
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posted on March 28, 2008 04:16:40 PM new
In case I am confusing anyone, I was referring to the Chimayo who use a horizonal loom. The Navajos and Pueblos use a vertical loom.
buyhigh
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