posted on August 7, 2001 10:09:54 PM new
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
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… that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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Meaningless words? Are they outdated and no longer apply to our modern government? Is our representative form of government no longer to represent us -- We The People? Is the word Corporation to replace the word People in the historic texts above? If we are not to be represented, then are we not now living in a Tyranny?
posted on August 7, 2001 10:34:07 PM new
They're certainly not meaningless words, for they express concerns of the people of the colonies well in that circumstance. But they are only an impossible ideal now and have been for some time as the people by their collective and elective choices have given over the power they express, and there are too many people, citizens all to ever come to agreement as to what are light and transient causes, much less on any course of action, particularly one so disruptive as to alter or abolish a form of government which was put in place by their own figurative collective decision and which provides for them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness however they are willing to accept those things.
posted on August 7, 2001 10:35:54 PM new
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Corporations are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Corporations, deriving their just powers from the consent of the Corporations, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the Corporations to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that businesses are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Corporations; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
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… that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the Corporations, by the Corporations, for the Corporations shall not perish from the earth.
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We the Corporations of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Aug 7, 2001 10:37 PM ]
posted on August 7, 2001 10:43:25 PM new
You are absolutely right, KRS. The American people HAVE given over thier rights to the care of our government -- and such care has been coming up short of late. Our government was formed to be a representative one so that it is not necessary for every individual to go represent themselves in Congress. But now, We the People no longer have any representation in Congress. Even the Democrats are guilty of shelving McCain's Campaign Finance Reform Bill -- which is only the first in a series of fixes for our government to represent us again. Now, both sides work for their masters, enslaving themseves with massive bribes from the Corporations, the Rich and the Powerful.
posted on August 7, 2001 10:46:01 PM new
An uprising, for lack of a more descriptive word, by corporations to overthrow a government in this country established for the people and counter to the goals of those corporations is quite possible in this country if they feel a need. So long as their goals are met through the democratic process, however much it is colored and perverted they won't do that, but the large corporations of the world and of this country are the only powers which have the resources to accomplish such an overthrow.
The last chance for the people was the civil war in this country. It caught the union essentially unarmed, and won't happen again. Since that time the union has maintained sufficient domestic force to quell any further attempt to usurp the will of he people, or did I mean to say to return the will of the people to the people.
posted on August 7, 2001 11:24:41 PM new
I see your frustration Borillar, but part of the problem is that people, as a whole, cannot agree on right or wrong because in reality there are no real truths.
Slowly, we've allowed the government to step in and tell us what's 'right' and what we should believe in. Now we have this big monster that controls most aspects of our lives, giving us individuals less and less power by the minute.
We just don't seem able to accept responsibility for our actions. If we did, our government would be pretty tiny. We, the people have made our beds and only we can do something to change that.
posted on August 8, 2001 12:12:23 AM new
I sometimes wonder about the times of the American Patriots. Would the people of Patrick Henery's day have given him the brush-off for his famous quote as the notion does to many people today? "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." Was it not just as dangerous for the likes of agitators such as Samual Adams to have gone about the dusruptions as he did? Did he not MAKE things happen by his very words?
The grip of our government on us is less secure than King George had on us; although they'd like everyone to believe differently. Surely, any uprising by the populus to replace our currently fouled government with a representative form of government as outlined by the U.S. Constitution would be met -- fatally, by law enforcement and government forces. They do this because they fear us.
Too bad so many people have a "wait and see" attitude. That's like the farmer talking about the open door to the chicken coop, "Let's sit here and wait to see if the foxes will stop raiding the chickens." What incentive is there for them to stop doing what they are doing now? Without an incentive, they'll be doing a lot worse down the road than what they are getting away with right now.
Others just couldn't care less, as if it doesn't affect them any. Higher fuel and energy prices? Not my worry! All of your personal, private data -- including your medical records, sold as a commodity to anyone who wants to and YOU have no say-so? Not my problem! Dammit! If no one is going to care, then what chance do we have?
Samual Adams is my hero. He was a great agitator and knew how to cause trouble in just the right way. All I can do is to have temper tantrums on the Internet. I've failed my hero.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:38:00 AM new
It doesn't say endowed by "the" creator, it says endowed by "their" creator, which means each individual's notiion of his/her creator, which would include "mother nature", has endowed those rights. This is a way of saying that the rights are inheirent from the point of being, regardless of how, who, or why we came into being. This was also a way of saying that regardless of creed, royal ancestry, or religion, those rights are possessed by each being. I might add the the Declaration of Independence, while a revered document, is not a legal document of US law, that is, it has no authority in legal cases.
edited to add- "one nation under god" was added to the Pledge of Alligence in the 1950's as part of the Red Scare campaign, as well as "in god we trust" was added to the money as a political statement to show those godless commies.
A full reading of the document also points to the ambiguity about who or exactly what god was-
"and to assume, among the Powers of the earth,the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
Jefferson refers to "Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God". By many accounts and evidence Jefferson was not a christian, and his notion of a god differed greatly from christian doctrine. If you think our founding fathers believed anything akin to modern religious dogma, it would be a mistake. These guys were very well read, including being well versed in old and new testements, yet nearly to a man they expressed deist dogma, which entails that we may have even been left here by space aliens.
posted on August 8, 2001 05:42:25 AM new
For a significant part of your nation's history, Borillar, slavery was legal. You seem to be ignoring that fact.
posted on August 8, 2001 05:52:05 AM new
As far as what happened post-Lincoln, well, in my research of stock certificates, I've done a lot of interesting reading about the shenanigans of the Robber Barons.
posted on August 8, 2001 06:15:53 AM new
Bravo reamond, though the exchange is off point, it isn't your doing.
Stockticker, the robber barons were the grandfathers of the corporate structures that borillar complains of who had near free reign over the country until the great crash of wall street and the depression. Frustrated only slightly by the initiation of union activities in worker protections, they marched along in control of the country. During the depression, and after it, FDR frustrated them even more by the actions that he took in essentially giving back the country to the people through dedicated work programs for the good of the nation and the people, through farm aids of many types, through the social security programs, medical programs, and the most important program for the return of power to the people as specified in the constitution and associated documents-- the income tax, which gave the people a means to finance the various programs that were for the betterment of all of the people. No longer was there such a reliance on the large corporations for the country to operate, in fact, the income tax forced those same corporations to pay a proportionate share of the cost of running a nation of the people and for the people. His, FDR's initiatives were resented deeply and are still the primary targets of the corporations, the republican political party, even today--actually, especially today. During WW2 it seemed that the two, the people and the corporations, could form a united bond to a common goal, and for the duration of that conflict they did do that in large part. But since that struggle the corporations have been on a directed path to return to their former dominance and their political tool for doing it is the republican corporate army, or party, as they prefer to call it.
posted on August 8, 2001 10:10:37 AM new
Near (May I use your first name?),
KRS doesn't have an answer, so I wouldn't waste the time, if I were you. Maybe Boriller will take a shot at it. It is his thread.
I just thought of the answer to your question. The government owns the corps. No, that can't be correct, because the corps own the government. MY GOD! N0body owns them, so I will claim them all...finders keepers.
posted on August 8, 2001 10:14:08 AM new
Yeah, you own them. Go on down and get your dinner from your corporation. What? You have to pay them? How can that be?
Excellent idea on the dinner. I think, I will cash a dividend check and have a little Tex-Mex and beer tonight. BTW, I also lend them money (the corps). It's called investing in bonds.
posted on August 9, 2001 04:43:11 PM new
Tex1 I don't think he'll see that, but if he does, he, and others will say that foriegners own them, but thats not all true.
Sure there are some corps. owned by foriegners, but not all
I cannot answer for Borillar, but I'm sure he would say they are just evil Republicans that own them...... which btw, I am positive that there has got to be some corporations owned by Democrats and Independents.
(but that is just an opinion, I do not have a url and linkable also to that... )
posted on August 9, 2001 04:50:31 PM new
There is no answer. Take ebay, for example; the majority stockholder is the Omidyar foundation, a tax exempt charitable group. People own stock ("Look at me, I'VE Got a Piece of the Rock!", but they own nothing other than a share of the fate of the corporation.
