posted on September 3, 2001 10:51:24 AM new"Yes, but it has killed many more than it has saved."
"More people die defending and spreading Christianity then have been killed by the zealots that think they can force people to believe in Christ."
It is an odd thing, this thought. If you think about armies fighting and killing each other, both of which claim that God is on their side, then I call that a travesty. If one kills in the name of God, then that one is bad. But if one dies fighting in the name of God, then that one is a martyr. It makes me shake my head.
posted on September 3, 2001 01:28:25 PM newkrs the government has as much to do with the eradication of the Native Americans as any missionary would have. Here is a link from Christianity Today detailing some of the mistakes missionaries did make, and yet some of thier accomplishments as well;
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/2000/002/9.36.html.
There are people who wish to place all of the ills of the world on Christians, and all historical murder and mayhem must be laid at the feet of all Christians as well. People feel that Christians are responisable for all things that go wrong in the world, past and present. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven, to coin a popular phrase. It does not seem to matter because you feel you are right and I am wrong, and there is no two ways about it. We are supposed to act like our Savior. Here is a link to answer questions on who our Savior is; http://www.ccci.org/whoisjesus/interactive-journey/menu.htm. It is very interesting and informitive.
Borillar; why is it unusual? People will die and fight for the causes they believe in. firstover's statement of "Yes, but it has killed many more than it has saved." is, in one way,irrelivent. When a person who believes in Christ dies, they go to heaven, to spend eternity with God. So, in one sence, it has killed more in this world, because we live for something better then this world. So, for a Christian to "die", isn't as big a deal to them as it is for say a Muslim, or Islamic fundamentalism, or even a Jehovah Witness. On an earlier thread (I cannot remember who said it or where,exactly) someone said "Christians are getting what they deserve now." I do not agree with that, but I do agree that we all pay a price when we sin. Just as the Crusades were wrong, so too is the murder of Christians in Pakistan. As the Church of England was wrong to go after people like Martin Luther or Wesley, or Hitler killing the Jews, or the murder of Simon the Zealot, or even the assination of MLK. It's all wrong. But it is common. It is common because we are mere mortals, and not God, or Jesus, or whomever it is you place your faith in. People believe the words "Love thy nieghbor as thyself", but even we Christians fail more often then succeed in this simple commandment from out Lord. That is why that paragon makes sense in a way, Borillar. Because we are human, and we screw up more often then not.
I guess I got a little long winded here, but I felt it was needed.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on September 3, 2001 01:44:00 PM new"Borillar; why is it unusual?"
Not unusal, Rick. Just sad. That any government uses the name of God to persecute and to kill others, in whatever form that they worship Him, is a lie. One can scarecly believe that God would condone any killing or persecution, no matter what kind of or how great the sin is. Then to have governments pretend that God condones such things ... how sad.
posted on September 3, 2001 01:45:35 PM new
No, it was not needed, and that's the point. If a Christian lives in this life for a better life with his God fine, and I wish him all speed on his journey. But the preaching he makes along his path is painful to my ears. That disruption of my path is not welcome nor do I believe that it is the wish of any Christian God to make my life worse by the doing of it.
Just go your way, Christian. I won't interfere, and you don't need me to assist you.
posted on September 3, 2001 01:49:15 PM new
Ah Borillar, you haven't read my link.
Their God does direct them to kill.
"Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)"
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
"You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new."
posted on September 3, 2001 02:12:15 PM new
You are right on both counts, KRS. I did not read your link yet (sorry) and there are many, many, many quotes given to God in hte Old Testiment condoning killings, murders, rape, destruction, and so forth for the slighest of greivences. I prefer to believe that CHRISTIANS follow the words and tachings of JESUS CHRIST -- not the Old Testiment. Nations do their killing for power and control in the name of God; as if God doesn't have the power to make any changes that He sees fit to make for Himself. He doesn't need us to do it for Him -- that's not our business.
posted on September 3, 2001 02:36:40 PM new
I know that they would have us believe that they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ but they too often bring up, selectively, that old testament. Why, if they're forgiven, do they need that stuff?
posted on September 3, 2001 02:45:46 PM newkrs, I cannot go on my way, I am called to preach His gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ. I will constantly do this, just as you will constantly deny Him. Just as Borillar will constantly try to change political views. You constantly quote O.T.(Old Testiment, the time before Christ), without ever giving the fact that we were not called Christians until after the crucifixtion of Jesus, in Acts 11:26:
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
The O.T. applies for Church history, and for details of where and what God did for His choosen people. He calls us to spread His word, and I will do that. Do not presume what He does and does not want. Where does Jesus tell us to do that? When does He tell us to kill others? ANYONE can and has taken O.T. directives out of context, and used them to thier own needs.
Here is a comparitive religion article. Granted, it is from a Christian prospective, but it is truthful.
Borillar: we are using religion in this discussion, but to spread your political/financial/moral beliefs through violence (there are many proof texts for this as well) is also wrong. But it is still done, even today, and even in this country.
Christianity is a relationship with the Creator and Savior of the world. And yet it is more then that; for people who call themselves Christians, it is their way of life.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on September 3, 2001 03:21:45 PM new"Just as Borillar will constantly try to change political views."
Rick, you are dead wrong about that. I preach to the choir, not to the heathens.
"Borillar: we are using religion in this discussion, but to spread your political/financial/moral beliefs through violence (there are many proof texts for this as well) is also wrong."
Name one instance that I have advocated the spread of my political/financial/moral beliefs through violence, Rick. Just one.
You can't, Rick, because I don't and I haven't. It sounds to me like you've been listening to the wrong crowd on here. Instead of BEING TOLD what the facts are, why don't you read what I have to say FOR YOURSELF?
Of course, you are free to bring up any examples that you may find through searches on here where I have advocated the spread of my political/financial/moral beliefs through violence, Rick, and show them to me.
posted on September 3, 2001 03:26:51 PM newBorillar I did not mean you personally, and since that is the way you took that statement, I apoloigize. What I ment was "your" in the universal sense we were discussing here. I apoloigize again, and will not change my post so others can see what this little exchange means.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on September 3, 2001 03:32:47 PM new
"So, for a Christian to "die", isn't as big a deal to them as it is for say a Muslim, or Islamic fundamentalism, or even a Jehovah Witness."
Muslims also think they are going to paradise.
And Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves Christians.
Of course I realize most christians don't consider others true christains - and there are a lot of flavors of muslims also.
In fact they seldom have trouble killing each other.
posted on September 3, 2001 03:37:23 PM new
No Rick, I do not constantly cite the old testament; I point out that christians often do, and that is what I question. Jesus in effect taught that his followers should hear and follow him and set aside what had previously been taught them. Note that I used the term 'in effect' and do not cite verse at this time. I'm sure that you are familiar with the passage which is often read that way for how else was he to deal with the disparate effects of his new beginning and the remnants of the older and more violent past. The stories must live on as history, taken as fact, but for a true enlightenment to occur they could not continue as guidance.
posted on September 3, 2001 03:40:51 PM new
No problem, Rick. Thank you for making it clear what you meant. That's always the toughest part about posting, is trying to convey exactly what you mean. It's a wonderful skill to develope and one reason why I do post in message forums.
After re-reading what you said previously, rick, I can see that we do at least agree on this one thing.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:04:30 PM new
>>"If you think about armies fighting and killing each other, both of which claim that God is on their side, then I call that a travesty."<<
Here's a scenario. Two nations are at war. Both sides claim to be Christian. Religious leaders on both sides pray for a speedy victory and the safety of the troops while they slaughter their Christian "Brothers" on the other side. Which side is God on?
From what I know, Christianity was founded on the teachings of Jesus. To quote scripture he said "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another". Since you can't really have love for someone before you kill him or her, I would say that Christian can not willfully kill another Christian and be a "Christian".
Does it conflict with Christian beliefs to kill or persecute a non-Christian? To quote another passage: "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven".
From what I know of the teachings of Jesus, Christians should be pacifists. I can't find anything in the New Testiment to condone any type of violence.
Feel free to correct me if I am in error...
[ edited by outoftheblue on Sep 4, 2001 01:51 PM ]
