stusi
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posted on May 8, 2002 07:35:30 PM new
Since 9/11,many people, myself included, have expressed less tolerance for murderers. Many who previously were not for the death penalty are now apparently for it. Have you changed or modified your position?
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yellowstone
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posted on May 8, 2002 08:11:59 PM new
No.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 8, 2002 08:50:48 PM new
NO
I would like to read the source of your information, if you have one.
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gravid
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posted on May 8, 2002 08:56:29 PM new
No - my reasons were thought out over a period of time and not quickly swayed by one emotional event.
The truth is many are not guilty who are executed and once you have killed them you can't correct it.
The elite like Bush will never have to face the gallows - mostly the poor the black and the stupid.
When they limit it to killers caught at the scene of the crime with two or more witnesses
I will buy it.
The judge and prosecuter should be so sure of guilt that they are willing to lay down their lives later if the person is later proved innocent.
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rawbunzel
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posted on May 8, 2002 10:23:54 PM new
No. I would say if anything I have become more tolerant.
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Borillar
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posted on May 8, 2002 10:39:03 PM new
No.
Even though the thought of Bush and his cronies who are dismanteling America's best institutions and plundering the American Taxpayer's treasury being heavily punished, as in the gallows, is a pleasant thought; yet, I still do not believe in the concept of punishment. Punishment is a null concept whose time is past in a truely civilized society.
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breinhold
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posted on May 9, 2002 09:10:13 AM new
no-only here
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REAMOND
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posted on May 9, 2002 12:34:58 PM new
I have always supported the death penalty because it is part of the social contract, but with the caveat that our justice system is unable to properly carry it out.
Until the governemnt seeks truth and justice instead of convictions and provides a system where the accused has the same resources available to defned him/herself as anyone else, there should be no death penalty. Far too many are executed simply because they are too poor, too stupid, or lack a political constituency. Hundreds have been executed on far less evidence than the "not guilty" O J Simpson, and Simpson is just the most public example. We have a justice system for those with resources and those without resources. Those without resources end up in prison and on death row. The wealthy skate or aren't even prosecuted because they have resources that out strip many justice systems.
I also support liberal immigration policies for economic reasons and as a relif valve for many nations. However, I do not support liberal immigration policies if it subverts our security. If we don't have security, the positives derived from liberal immigration policies cease to exist.
As a matter of course, we should have liberal immigration, but until the present dangers are quashed, we need to seal the borders and expel those that are here illegally.
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 9, 2002 01:06:46 PM new
stusi, why do you feel less tolerant? Is it anger?
I agree with you REAMOND, but I think it's too little too late. The precautions for all of this should have been in place decades ago when civil liberties weren't so liberal....maybe after WW2. Now we've resorted to taking away nail clippers from airplane passengers for security. I doubt we'll ever be secure.
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stusi
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posted on May 9, 2002 01:58:53 PM new
kraftdinner- It's not anger. It's an intellectual thought process that has to do with we the people having to pay($) for warehousing murderers. When terrorists were seen to be coming to our shores by the dozens(hundreds,thousands?) it hit me that we just cannot and should not pay to house these killers. I am not talking, as some here may think, about executing all accused people. But when we talk about a mother killing her kids, a guy blowing up a Federal building, or terrorists blowing up the WTC, the death penalty is appropriate.
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snowyegret
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posted on May 9, 2002 03:25:03 PM new
Maryland has declared a moratorium on executions while waiting for study results on racial bias.
CNN article
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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Helenjw
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posted on May 9, 2002 04:05:10 PM new
The death penalty is applied not only with racial bias but also financial bias and to juveniles and the mentally retarded.
I certainly don't see the connection between the events of 9/11 and the death penalty. I asked Stusi to produce some evidence that this strange association exists but so far, I haven't seen any.
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KatyD
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posted on May 9, 2002 04:10:46 PM new
What I don't like about the death penalty is that the application of it can be manipulated for political or sociological reasons. It doesn't sit well with me that we execute our own terrorists (Tim McVey) but not the islamic terrorists found guilty of the first WTC bombing. It is a fact that they were given life sentences rather than the death penalty because our government didn't want to rile sentiments abroad. Fat lot of good that did us. If it is going to be implemented, it needs to be applied fairly to all regardless of who they are, where they come from, or how much money they have.
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on May 9, 2002 04:11 PM ]
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stusi
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posted on May 9, 2002 06:17:35 PM new
Helen, my good friend. In the days following 9/11 there were numerous people interviewed, particularly those from NYC, who were saying that they were not previously for the death penalty but that they had changed their thinking regarding the terrorists. If you missed all of those such statements do some research. As I had no idea we would be having this discussion I did not save the links. Is it really incomprehensible for you to imagine this or are you just giving me a hard time again?
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Helenjw
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posted on May 9, 2002 07:35:09 PM new
Stusi, you stated at the beginning of this thread..."Since 9/11,many people, myself included, have expressed less tolerance for murderers. Many who previously were not for the death penalty are now apparently for it." Have you changed or modified your position?
No, stusi, I shouldn't give you a hard time. I'm sure that if you had a link to this absurd claim that you would not hesitate to list it.
Since 9/ll, the state of Maryland has adopted a state of moratorium on the death penalty. Nobody here has changed their opinion of the death penalty based on 9/11. I seriously doubt that anyone has changed their position on the death penalty one way or the other based on what happened 9/11.
I don't see the connection. It simply doesn't make good sense.
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stusi
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posted on May 9, 2002 07:56:01 PM new
It doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't believe in the death penalty or who wasn't traumatically affected by the events of 9/11. I don't think you can disagree that there are sometimes events in life that cause a change in one's thinking. There are many for whom murder simply never struck close to home until 9/11. Not too difficult to comprehend! For many, seeing the WTC crumble on T.V., not to mention those seeing it in person, was very traumatic and changed their thinking forever. It brought murder into their life and home like never before, as if a family member had been killed. It changed their thinking. Are you saying you don't get that some may have been affected this way? Would you understand a person whose child was raped and murdered changing their thinking about the death penalty? Wake up Helen! Do you really need proof?
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 9, 2002 08:05:43 PM new
I agree Helen. I see it as a separate issue. I agree stusi that there is a great deal of injustice in the way foreign criminals are treated compared to our own, just like KatyD said, but I honestly don't see where the death penalty fits in...sorry!
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stusi
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posted on May 9, 2002 08:16:15 PM new
kraft- it has nothing to do with foreign criminals vs. our own! If a terrorist had survived the crash, there are many who would want him put to death, even having been previously against the death penalty. I can't explain it any clearer.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 9, 2002 08:31:28 PM new
Yes, stusi, I need evidence to believe that people have changed their opinion of the death penalty based on the 9/11 events. And, as you know, the evidence is not available because a study has not been made.
I did not change my mind about the death penalty based on the 9/11 events and furthermore,
if my child were raped and murdered as you mentioned, I still would not change my mind about the death penalty.
And by the way, we didn't have to be on ground zero in New York City to experience trauma about this event. My daughter was in Washington DC near the Pentagon when it was bombed.
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stusi
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posted on May 9, 2002 08:59:01 PM new
People change their mind every day about abortion, religious beliefs etc. due to less than traumatic events. Oh, nevermind. There is sometimes very little intellect on this board. I guess that is why the "peeps" threads got so many posts. nycyn- get the fire extinguisher.
[ edited by stusi on May 9, 2002 09:00 PM ]
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JACKSWEBB
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posted on May 9, 2002 09:11:34 PM new
[ edited by JACKSWEBB on May 10, 2002 09:35 AM ]
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 9, 2002 10:20:24 PM new
You give up too easily stusi.  I'm just trying to understand what you're thinking. Just because nobody here agrees that 911 changed their tolerance, doesn't mean it isn't perfectly A-OK for you to feel that way.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 10, 2002 05:11:09 AM new
"very little intellect on this board"
Shame, shame on you, stusi!!! Just 'cause we don't change our minds to align with yours you call us peeps with little intellegence?
When you find the fire hose, turn it on yourself.
ubb ed.
[ edited by Helenjw on May 10, 2002 05:11 AM ]
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stusi
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posted on May 10, 2002 07:10:57 AM new
kraft- thanks but I don't need reassurance. Helen-Part of the reason I say there is sometimes very little intellect here is because some people can't tell the difference between being asked to see a possibility exists in another person and you being asked to change your mind. They are not necessarily simultaneous truths. Being asked for proof that a person can change their mind about the death penalty after witnessing mass murder is just obtuse.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 10, 2002 07:22:44 AM new
<quote>
"Being asked for proof that a person can change their mind about the death penalty after witnessing mass murder is just obtuse"
<end quote>
No, stusi... stating, as you did when you started this thread that "many" people have changed their minds about the death penalty after witnessing mass murder, without any supporting evidence is "just obtuse".
Helen
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Helenjw
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posted on May 10, 2002 07:27:24 AM new
I will be out for a few hours.
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stusi
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posted on May 10, 2002 08:09:02 AM new
Stay there. Proof of "few" may be required. BTW- it was your questioning that ANYONE could have such a change of heart that was the problem I had with you. I understand the problem you had with "many" but would a few thousand be many? Is that real hard to imagine?
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Helenjw
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posted on May 10, 2002 10:30:09 AM new
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rawbunzel
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posted on May 10, 2002 10:31:32 AM new
Right after 9-11 I was ready to send in the troops and obliterate the middle east. That was my immediate response to the disaster. I would have been ready to kill anyone that had anything to do with it. As I say, that was my immediate,gut, response. About two weeks after I came back to my senses...after the initial shock wore off. Don't you think some of these NY folks that were interviewed right after the incident might have been speaking from emotion and not really expressing their true feelings? I guess my point is that many people may have changed their minds about murderers right after 9-11 but many of them probably changed it back.
I do believe in the death penalty. I do believe we over use it and that often the people that should get it do not and people that shouldn't do. Serial killers certainly should get the death penalty . KatyD is right. Why do we kill our own homegrown terrorists but the foreign born ones get life in prison? Makes no sense. As long as the system is not working we shouldn't use it at all.
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 10, 2002 01:35:54 PM new
stusi, I re-read this all again, and I think what you're saying is, if one of the 911 terrorists survived, and you were against the death penalty to begin with, would you change your mind and want this guy put to death. Am I close?
If that's what you mean, I think it's a good question. It would sure be a test of your convictions!
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