posted on June 26, 2002 12:32:28 PM new
Did anyone hear about a federal appeals court ruling concerning the Pledge of Allegiance and the public schools? It's now a no-no to have to recite the pledge.
posted on June 26, 2002 12:43:46 PM new
Yes. The court ruled that the words "Under God" or more clearly, "One Nation Under God" is an endorsement by government of a religious belief and as such, is a clear violation of the seperation of Church and State. Any Forrest Gump could tell you that!
It will certainly be appealed to the Supreme Court. If that court agrees with the loweer court ruling, then either the Pledge must Go, or the words "Under God" must go.
posted on June 26, 2002 12:47:50 PM new
The dems did it again. Opting out of the pledge wasn't enough, they had to take the foundation of our country right out from under us. It will be considered unconstitutional to repeat the Pledge.
This is a sad day, indeed. We are headed on a course of socialism by the democratic party.
posted on June 26, 2002 12:51:23 PM new
The recitation of the Pledge and the opening prayer for our local government sessions has always irked me because I'm a non-believer. In fact, the only place I usually hear prayers, besides weddings and funerals,is at government meetings.
posted on June 26, 2002 12:53:15 PM new
pclady, we're indeed in sorry shape if the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is the only thing that stands between us and damnation.
posted on June 26, 2002 01:30:40 PM new
So I guess the people who are against the "God" word in the Pledge, are also against U.S. bills, and so on....
The interpretation of GOD has gone beyond sensibility. It's a word meaning goodness. Something we need to trust in. If you don't like the word, don't say it, but if the word God is removed, it has to be removed from everything else.
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.
The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:
It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'
A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.
I can't believe that a Baptist minister would have left out God .
[ edited by clarksville on Jun 26, 2002 01:43 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2002 01:46:54 PM new
Actually, what I never could understand is, why Christian and others aren't fighting the entire pledge. IMO it is idoltry, worshipping an object and the "creation" over God, the creator (Romans).
posted on June 26, 2002 02:16:20 PM new
Several sects do consider the Pledge idolatry. In fact, when the Pledge was made mandatory in many schools during WWII, these folks went to court, and I think they originally lost but later the Supreme Court reversed its decision.
It is a sad day when religion is dependant on the govt to carry its message.
I too am offended when our govt meetings are opened with prayers and the Pledge which includes "under god".
posted on June 26, 2002 03:27:45 PM new
Near the Sea -
Since they went to money unbacked by anything except the "full faith and credit" of the government they probably put the "In God we Trust" hoping to gain some merit for the fiat money by appealing to God - instead of the real truth - "Trust Us" - LOL
posted on June 26, 2002 04:16:28 PM new
"Trust in God" lessens the credibility for me.
I figure someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes when I see that slogan.
posted on June 26, 2002 04:31:11 PM new
Yesterday, the topic was exercising. Today, we want to declare the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional. Something strange is going on.
posted on June 26, 2002 04:38:20 PM new"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.'"
So, why are all of the godless Christians complaining? It's not as if the Pledge has been BANNED, it's not going to be FORCED on people! Or, do you feel that Religion should be forced upon you, whether you want it or not? Is that what God wants?
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all."
Now, I like this version! A Pledge not voluntary is an oath made under duress! There is certainly room for this version which presents the best ideals of Humankind in society. A love of one's home and one's culture that have been founded upon the ideals of Equality, Liberty, and Justice!
Personally, I wish government would adhere to the United States Constituion and REMOVE the word GOD from all of its aspects, as the Administration of God does not need the gross advertising by Man's fallible and often corrupt government.
posted on June 26, 2002 04:49:18 PM new
I started the topic because I don't believe in blind patriotism and I think the Pledge of Allegiance has become a mindless,mandatory routine in schools for decades. BTW, I don't recite it. In addition to the reference to God, I object to the claim that there is justice for all. ( In weeks and years to come we'll see if there is"liberty" for all as well.) It'll be interesting to see what the Supreme Court decides.
Anything new on the terrorism front? Can't we relate the terrorists to mindless religious pledge-following fanatics?
posted on June 26, 2002 05:02:54 PM new
In our local news they were saying that the phrase had become a generic meaningless catch all that had no religeous meaning anymore.
I asked my wife - If that is true then what is its value?
posted on June 26, 2002 05:03:27 PM new
saabsister
I hope that you didn't think that I was being critical of your topic. I have just been interested in managed news lately and I've been noticing the topic trends.... checking out what's happening in foreign papers and comparing the coverage with news and tv coverage here. I should have kept my thoughts to myself. LOL!
posted on June 26, 2002 05:08:20 PM new
Well, the guy from the Atheist Alliance is on the radio now.
The question was asked by the host whether we should somehow 'reform' or get rid of the Declaration of Independence (NOT the Constitution ) because it has several references to God (one God) in it. And he replied, 'of course not!, but we all have a problem with our coinage having In God We Trust on it.'
The guy that started this whole thing, went to court because his first grader was being subjected to saying the Pledge, and he didn't want her saying One Nation Under God.
posted on June 26, 2002 05:24:41 PM new
Helen, it's good to check the foreign news and see how much we miss here. (BTW, I was in the middle of reading a Washington Post article on cyber terrorism. I stopped long enough to check the front page. The House members just sang and recited the pledge. It makes me feel so secure.)
posted on June 26, 2002 05:26:12 PM new
Sorry! Hi Kraftdinner!
And to correct the above, the guy on the radio is NOT the guy that started this all in the court, he's just the head of one Atheist Alliance group.
And the host of this show is wrong LOL, there is only one reference to God in the Declaration of Independence. hmmmmm and it goes something like 'nature's God'.
posted on June 26, 2002 07:36:18 PM new
It's long overdue. Not only is it public prayer, it implies a monotheistic nation by the phrasing "one nation under one God..........."
posted on June 26, 2002 10:10:06 PM new
Tomorrow morning I take off for a long drive to California, so I'll leave you with this:
[i]"WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation."[i]
IF people were required to cite this paragraph each and every day at the Flag, it too would need to become VOLUNTARY to say it. Not everyone is a Pagan, and so, it offends Christians, Jews, and Moslems everywhere.
Seeya in a few days!
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The usage of the word God does appear to add credibilty to things.