posted on July 25, 2002 11:30:43 AM new
Hi LindaK. I really want to see the link on this, because I want to know how they can say this without it just being wild guessing. I practiced in Tx for quite a few years, from Austin and Abilene to Brownsville right on the border. The policy there in every hospital I was in was patients were not asked their nationality. Same in the Virgin Islands, France, and Germany. All those US hospitals also had to "give" a certain percentage of their care as "charity care".
Now, some uninsured patients were transported even when their condition was too unstable for transport, and the first hospital did have beds available. Also, uninsured patients are billed at a higher rate than insured. Is that adding to these figures?
(I remember the old days when I had to transport to another hospital just for a CAT scan) You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 25, 2002 11:36:21 AM new
This must've been about a year ago, but I saw a thing on 20/20 saying that the number of Mexican women that come across the border to have their babies is staggering. This assures them a safe delivery and American status for their child.
I assume the U.S. doesn't mind because they say there's nothing they can do about it.
posted on July 25, 2002 11:40:00 AM new
I'd be interested in seeing the figures too, snowy.
My sister is the Director of Nursing at one of the local hospitals extended care facilites and she says the percent of beds being occupied by illegal aliens has grown rapidly in recent years. Many beds are occupied by young men who worked dangerous construction jobs, became injured on the job and have no family here. Some are involved in car accidents, bar fights, etc. and end up in the hospital and then a nursing home - again no family to contact.
posted on July 25, 2002 11:59:18 AM new
I'm paraphrasing here....until the link is found. Rep. Mark Foley from Florida was the one who said that. He said the cost of medical care for the illegals in the area he represents is causing the two major hospitals in his district major financial problems. He and O'Reilly were discussing the subject and they threw around different ideas. One was to deport them and let their own countries pay for their health care. And the second was to care for them here, but to deduct those expenses from the amount of aid we give to their countries.
posted on July 25, 2002 12:14:34 PM new
That is weird. My post disappeared.
Kraft, there was a certain parking lot that had a lot of deliveries. It overlooked the Rio Grande.
One was to deport them
As I have seen patients transported who should not have been, this would be a proposal that I would be deluging my reps about. First is the ethics of refusing treatment. It would also cost a heck of a lot more. You're talking over $20,000 for an AirEvac by now. In the VI, patients who wanted to be airevaced to Miami had to come up with half the fee before transport. Who would handle the transports, what if there was no one to take them on the other country's side? How do the admitting personnel or first responder determine citizenship? Oh, the many problems I see with that proposal....
The flip side of this is all Americans overseas with health problems requiring hospital care should be deported?
Thanks LindaK.
dragging the soapbox off in the corner now.
stow
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
[ edited by snowyegret on Jul 25, 2002 12:17 PM ]
posted on July 25, 2002 12:21:28 PM new
saabsister - Yes, I've heard that too.
kraftdinner - I assume the U.S. doesn't mind because they say there's nothing they can do about it. Sure we can if enough people believe this is unfair to our own citizens. For whatever reasons/different reasons, the past few president's haven't found it to necessary to get serious about illegals entering our country.
That's why this Florida representative was saying he was going to work on writing some legislation that would change this. Do I think it will be successful? No, probably not. I just have trouble understanding why our nation is paying for people's health care who are here illegally, rather than spending those same funds on caring for our own poor.
posted on July 25, 2002 12:43:31 PM new
Linda, that's where they will run into the problem of unfair, mistaken, and possibly deceptive billing. Like I said, the uninsured are billed at a different and higher rate than the insured. The mistakes in medical billing and hospital billing are a scandal waiting to happen. And how about the billing from other countries for treatment of American citizens?
I wonder what 2 hospitals are in trouble? Did you hear? You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 25, 2002 12:47:47 PM new
you hear lots of "facts" (largely unverified) bandied about by the politicians about how much these "aliens" are costing us, but I don't believe I have ever heard anyone quote any figures about how much money these folks put back INTO our economy. Don't forget, they come here, NOT to collect welfare, but to WORK , and virtually all of them do. The don't send all of their money back to Mexico or Guatemala..while here, they have to pay rent, transportation, buy food, clothing and all the other necessities of life...and the plus is, they pay for all these things with good old US currency, not plastic.. I once got the idea that being a landlord would be fun and economically smart, so I bought two run down houses in a small town near here and fixed them up. They are next door to each other. After a succession of dirtbag, deadbeat, excuse making "citizen" renters nearly wrecked both places, I sold them both to two families from Mexico who are here without papers....yes, it's perfectly legal to own property in the US, whether you have permission to be here or not, and perfectly legal to sell to them....I had to carry the mortgages on these folks, but in more than two years, I have never had a problem, both buyers are in the Title Company office the first of the month on the dot with full cash payments in hand, like clockwork...they are eternally grateful for the opportunity to actually own a real home...if we didnt have illegal aliens to blame for the costs of medical care in this country...well gosh, we'd have to find somebody else!
posted on July 25, 2002 01:03:09 PM new
The concept of reducing the amount of aid by the cost of medical bills for illegals is absurd. The aid dollars can vary from year to year and the exact amount of medical care is extremely hard to determine. This brings to mind the thread I started recently about illegals' families getting $ from the WTC disaster.
profe51- many of them DO come here to collect welfare as it gives them more $ than they were getting in their native country.
[ edited by stusi on Jul 25, 2002 01:05 PM ]
posted on July 25, 2002 02:19:41 PM new
snowyegret - He did mention their names. I just don't recall. I'm not aware Americans in other countries illegally are presenting this problem to other countries. I'm not aware of what other countries give the US aid. Maybe they are, I've just not heard about it.
profe51- Much of what you have said is very true. The problem I have is that while other people wait to enter the US according to the requirements, the illegals are not.
So, IMO, we [the US] should not reward that behavior. Two presidents [that I'm aware of] have granted these illegals immunity. To me, that encourages this to continue. Why wait to enter legally when if you can sneak in and have all the benefits afforded by the US taxpayers. The medical issue is just one of the major expenses we taxpayers pick up the tab for when so many illegals are allowed to get away with this.
posted on July 25, 2002 03:05:58 PM new
The Republicans won't stop the illegal border crossings because employers love illegal aliens, they can cheat them, under pay them, and the illegals have no one to complain to for fear of deportation.
The Dems won't stop illegal border crossings because these illegals are all potential Dem voters after an amnesty program.
Both parties give a nod and wink to illegals crossing from Mexico because the US acts as a pressure relief valve for Mexico's weak economy and corrupt government.
Central American has a huge population under 25 years old and few prospects for them.
The challenges we face are little different than what Rome faced when the barbarians flooded in to end the Roman era. We have low birth rates, corrupt ineffective politicians, , no cohesive vision of the future for our country. The parallels are remarkable. When Roman leadership realized that birth rates had fallen too low, they began passing marriage laws very similar to the marriage acts proposed by our current leaders. As the old religions faded, the politicians tried to pass laws to bolster and support the old religions. The same effects are being felt in Europe too.
Our democracy is purely a numbers game. If you don't want your culture and society to change, the only way to assure that it doesn't is for all of us to go on a breeding program bigger than the last baby boom. Then Mexico will have to worry about our kids coming to Mexico.
The idea that illegal aliens are coming here in great numbers to collect welfare is ludicrous. Most, in spite of current news that they will not be deported, are in daily fear of detection. That large numbers of them would be willing to jump through the hoops necessary to get into the welfare system,and thereby notify the government of their existence, just doesnt make any sense. I have heard this argument only from politicians who are playing for the votes of those looking for simple answers, never from any reliable studies. From personal experience , all of the illegals I am friends with hereabouts, do not work for cash or get paid under the table somehow. They all work for paychecks which have had taxes and social security taken out just like everybody else. They are paying their fair share of taxes which go towards benefits that most of them will never take advantage of... Current laws make employers liable for hiring aliens without green cards (permission to work in the US) but they do not make employers liable for hiring aliens with FAKE green cards, and the going rate here for a real nice green card and fake SS card is 125.00, and the maker of these is a US citizen...present this to your prospective employer and he is off the hook and can hire you. The stereotype of aliens working for cash under the table and taking advantage of the welfare system while they don't pay taxes is no longer valid, if it ever was. If you know of a legitimate study.. not the rantings of some politician or anti immigration group... which indicates widespread abuse of the welfare system by undocumented aliens, I would love to read it...
posted on July 25, 2002 04:47:41 PM new
Considering all the billions thrown away on useless things and hellhole rigimes around the world I can't begrudge a few million for women to have a safe delivery if they can finagle a way to get it. It probably makes the world a better place in the long term than another B-1 bomber.
posted on July 25, 2002 06:46:56 PM new
It is our job to provide aid and comfort to the sick and needy. There are many problems associated with the medical industry. The high cost of providing medical care to indigents is one.
Our system suffers from several flaws, including the inflated cost of medicine and research. Research funding is big business. So much so that one wonders whether we are actually creating a disincentive to find cures for cancer, AIDS, etc.
So many "studies" recently have shown natural remedies to be harmful, while the FDA continues to approve dangerous drugs for human use. The FDA lobby is huge.
In some areas, the number of poor people needing medical help certainly affects the bottom line. OTOH, the U.S. is one of the last countries that doesn't offer socialized medicine. If we shipped all the immigrants back home perhaps we could cut down on expenses, but in my opinion the human factor outweighs the questionable bookkeeping by HMOs.
posted on July 25, 2002 07:08:30 PM new
profe51- "jump through the hoops necessary to get into the welfare system"? How about obtaining forged documents? I am not sure what "great numbers" means, but avoiding taxes and violating housing regulations are a serious problem in some areas. How about those who immigrate and then go on welfare? Since the numbers of illegals can only be estimated, "legitimate" studies are by definition rare at best. Other than emergency medical care, I don't think illegals should be entitled to any of our social services and should be deported, as the legal immigration regs are more than liberal.
posted on July 25, 2002 07:26:27 PM new
Earlier today, for the first time in a long time, I just had to turn the computer off and walk away. The selfish people here labeling other people "illegals "and promoting the idea that as such they should be denied health care in this country was callous beyond my comprehension. We certainly need an overhaul of the health care system in this country but to blame our inferior health care system on immigrants is so ignorant that it is simply incomprehensible.
But when I read the last posts by REAMOND, Profe51, Gravid, Snowyegret and twinsoft my faith in humanity was revived - like a breath of fresh air!!!
Since I have a problem with insurance companies, and HMO's, the quote by twinsoft was especially significant to me.
"In some areas, the number of poor people needing medical help certainly affects the bottom line. OTOH, the U.S. is one of the last countries that doesn't offer socialized medicine. If we shipped all the immigrants back home perhaps we could cut down on expenses, but in my opinion the human factor outweighs the questionable bookkeeping by HMOs."
posted on July 25, 2002 07:58:58 PM new
Just from a PRACTICAL view. You spend a few thousand bucks to make sure a kid is deliverd in a safe manner that is one kid that will not be handicapped or marginal and a drain on SOMEBODY for the next 60 years. If the mother is here illegally the kid will still end up a burden on the state one way or another if it is not taken care of. If they are shipped back across the border it still just increases the poverty and terrible conditions across the border that are driving people North.
If they really wanted to do something useful in the long term they would push the corrupt Mexican government into increasing the standard of living for it's people so they are not desperate to leave.
Instead the present US government seems to want to become like Mexico without a viable middle class and
have a vast underclass and an elite. Nobody seems bright enough to see that the middle class that pays the taxes and drives the economy is not an inexhaustable resource to be "mined" out of existance. I'm starting to think they like a gap between their elite society and the masses so they can feel all the more superior.
posted on July 25, 2002 08:04:39 PM new
I don't believe that we have cross-agency reporting on illegal aliens.
Welfare programs are run by the states, as are health facilities. I don't believe they are required to report to the INS.
I think that the feds wanted hospitals to report undocumented alien patients, but health providers raised h$ll that this would scare people away that needed health care, and their condition would worsen and end up costing more.
The same goes for public schools allowing alien children to attend without reporting to the feds.
While there is no doubt in my mind that we can seal the borders, we can't isolate ourselves from the problems of the world, as Bush et al would like to do. These problems will end up on our doorstep sooner or later, for better or worse.
I have no problem liberalizing immigration, but I would want reciprocity with countries like Mexico, as well as forcing changes on countries like Mexico for legal reforms.
If Mexico had a non-corrupt system, I think many Americans would move there and open businesses and stimulate the economy. A large part of the Social Security problem would be solved if retirees could move to places like Mexico. Social Security benefits would in effect be doubled in purchasing power for senior citizens that lived in Mexico. The US used to allow beneficiaries to reside in some foreign countries. I know that we allowed seniors to move back to Poland and keep their SS retirement benefits.
I also think that there is a limit to how many aliens we can successfully absorb. At some point civil strife becomes a factor. But this country has never been harmed by accepting aliens- of course Native Americans might have a different view of that.
""jump through the hoops necessary to get into the welfare system"? How about obtaining forged documents?"
there are no hoops to jump thru in obtaining forged documents...it's as easy as pie anywhere there is a significant alien population, be they latino, oriental or otherwise, and you don't give yourself up to the feds to do it. Your papers would probably not pass muster if you were trying to apply for Federal benefits, but they are all you need to get a job because, as I said, the law does not require employers to check the validity of those documents, and when illegal aliens are arrested, if their employer has a copy of their green card in his file, fake or not, he is off the hook...
There are no reliable studies, you're correct...so anyone in an official position who waves figures around is blowing smoke to serve his or her own political ends...and it all boils down to opinion and personal experience..
California reportedly spends $1.2 billion annually on medical care for illegal aliens, in part because some Mexicans prefer to have their babies born in the US because of the quality of medical care, and because the babies born in the US are US citizens. Prenatal care and emergency medical care are available to all residents, but MediCal fraud investigators find that, in many cases, aliens provide US addresses, but are not residents.
Is it right? I don't know. U.S. taxpayers pay for it, so you decide. I have no comment, except that there are tons of U.S. citizens that have little to no insurance and can't see a dr.
posted on July 26, 2002 09:31:08 AM new
The Mexican illegals here have day jobs and are paid under the table.If they arent beat out of their pay by a crooked employer,They
are robbed by street bandits,They can't get
a bank account because they have no social
security number.And they do send money home,
The weekends you see them in a long line at
Western Union,Or getting money orders at the
stores.The east side is mostly spanish and
it isnt a shock to find 12 to 25 people in
a one bedroom house.(safety in numbers)Drive down 2400 block of Congress early in the morning and you will see a sea of bodies waiting to get in the TX.Human Resources
building,All spanish,Maybe a couple of white bodys will be there,not more then that.All you have to do is get a Texas I.D,Nothing more then saying that is who you are.This will get the free medical and food stamps.
It is free if you are unemployed,illegles
have no work history.Everything is geared for the Spanish population,All services are manned by Spanish speakers,City and State.
I think the numbers of illegles are twice the amount stated in this url.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/march/31/immig6.htm
posted on July 26, 2002 10:09:07 AM new
It's not always a case of providing better care. It's much like Americans coming to Canada to have their children. That child will have free medical care for life.
If that much money is spent caring for these people that come over from Mexico, then why not take that money and build some hospitals near the Mexican border? I doubt it would work because they're interested in the status, not the care. Same with coming to Canada imo.
posted on July 26, 2002 10:09:15 AM new
No link to the transcript of the interview of Rep. Mark Foley hasn't been posted on Fox News site yet. It usually takes at least 24 hours for them to do so, if they do at all. If they do post it, I'll update.
Reamond - Your statement on why both the Republicans and the Democrats aren't stopping the flow of illegals is probably the closest truthful explanation we're even going to see on this board. I'd like to ask you how could the GOA agree to or do a study on the impact of illegal aliens on hospitals IF no records are kept on illegals? [as some are saying it's only a guess]
I just have trouble understanding why our nation is paying for people's health care who are here illegally, rather than spending those same funds on caring for our own poor.