For-Profit Colleges, what can be said? But state-run Community College costs are also shooting upwards, leaving the members of the commu ity that they serve out in the cold, unable to pay the tuition. That's got to be one of the most asinine examples of greed in our economy today.
ed.UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Oct 22, 2002 11:26 PM ]
posted on October 23, 2002 08:16:01 AM new
Are you saying that colleges like Harvard and Yale are there as a public service? While that may have been true with their founding, but since the 1980's, all of the Ivy League colleges have charged as much tuition as they can get away with. In other words, "What the market will bear." Sound familiar? And if it is not in their charter to make as much profit as possible, I fail to see the distinction.
posted on October 23, 2002 08:28:05 AM new
"got to be one of the most asinine examples of greed in our economy today."
So when costs go up, it's greed????
"all of the Ivy League colleges have charged as much tuition as they can get away with. In other words, "What the market will bear.""
So since we can all safely assume that the finance of running a University is one of the many things you're totally clueless about, we'll just chalk this up to another imbecilic statement.
Back on topic, I know that undergraduate tuition is a cash cow for Ivy League colleges. The tuition is unaffordable for most deserving students. I am still trying to recover from sending my daughter to one. Fewer students who qualify for admittance with financial aid are being admitted in favor of students whose parents can pay.
posted on October 24, 2002 02:20:52 PM new
About the surplus...
Yale's endowment: is bigger better?
BY NATHAN LITTLEFIELD
The American economy has experienced its longest period of continuous growth ever, and Yale's coffers have grown with it. From June 30, 1991 to June 30, 1999 the endowment, adjusted for inflation, more than doubled. Net tuition revenues increased over the same period, and the University operated at a $700,000 surplus over the last fiscal year. This prosperity parallels similar financial expansion across academia—it's a good time to be in the education business.
Unfortunately, students have no reason to share in the jubilation of the portfolio managers. During this expansion, Yale's tuition has risen by 13 percent, drastically outpacing inflation. The result is that college expenses consume a larger portion of family and student assets than ever before.
This trend flies in the face of the gradual democratization of higher education since the end of the World War II. During the boom of the '50s, college enrollments swelled and student demographics began to shift, especially at elite institutions like Yale. College ceased to be the exclusive province of the privileged, of white men for whom four years of brick, ivy, and the Western Canon were the next step from prep school to a life of guaranteed wealth. A new avenue of advancement opened to the lower and middle classes.
Today this avenue is closing to many. More people have a college degree, but many of those degrees confer little more benefit than a high school diploma did 50 years ago. Success now seems to require a brand-name college and a stint in graduate school. The cost of advancement has risen drastically, and educational institutions are to blame.
No matter what Yale says about renovation and the need to compensate for the ill-advised "deferred maintenance" policy of the '80s, its tuition increases are unnecessary. Certainly the long- neglected science departments need better facilities, and the colleges and other buildings are overdue for improvement. The University has no choice but to pay its professors their market value. However, none of these costs require imposing burdens on students. Yale's purpose—education—should dictate that students bear as little of the brunt for these expenses as possible.
Yale's tuition policy, like that of many universities, stems from losing sight of its real reason for being. Yale does not exist to make a profit—it exists to further knowledge. The budget surplus is evidence of irresponsibility on the Administration's part. Nearly three-quarters of a million dollars that could have gone to capital improvement, professor salaries, or financial aid fattened the endowment instead. Isn't $7.18 billion enough money to sustain a university?
Considering that the endowment doubled during a period when buildings needed renovation and research facilities needed upgrading, $7.18 billion seems more than enough. Searching for logic to explain this reveals this expansion, I can find no explanation but a misalignment of priorities. Our burgeoning endowment suggests that the University is just trying to keep up with the academic Joneses. A wad of cash growing through lucrative investments, donations, and tuition hikes looks good in U.S. News and World Report. It looks good next to Harvard's even deeper till. It does not, however, do a thing for Yale's students and professors. What does it matter if our endowment is $7 billion or $10 billion? Are we stockpiling to rebuild Old Campus after an earthquake?
So here's my outlandish proposal to Yale: leave the endowment where it is. Invest only enough money to keep it at its current size, adjusted for inflation. Put the funds that would have gone to the endowment into improving the quality of education, research, and life. Freeze tuition for a few years, increase financial aid, build some top-notch science facilities, and even put new bleachers in the Yale Bowl. In short, spend it all.
The already stellar quality of education at Yale would increase and a more socioeconomically diverse group of students could afford to attend. A method of advancement closing to many would open wider than ever. Perhaps our statement, along with Williams' tuition freeze, would inspire other universities. Maybe a new, more diverse generation of educated leaders would finally break into the government and business elites, which are still as white and male as Yale was in 1940. Is U.S. News and World Report really that important?
posted on October 24, 2002 02:54:03 PM new
Helen, what do you do to break the cycle or attitude of "I spent xxx on my Yale or Harvard educaton which is worth more than your U. of Maryland or George Mason U. B.S. or B.A., so pay me a salary worthy of my Yalie credentials"?
College courses in Virginia can be expensive both at community colleges and state universities. Surprise! Republican businessmen, members of No. Va.'s Round Table, challenged and threatened to withdraw support from George Allen because his administration undermined support for the state's universities.
posted on October 24, 2002 02:58:05 PM new
>Back on topic,
Hear! Hear!
My original point was that Community Colleges, whose explicit purpose was to bring AFFORDABLE higher education to the masses has failed their charter utterly with their greed.
The Community Colleges base their fees upon what the larger colleges in the area do, and they in turn, base theirs upon what the Ivy League colleges charge for tuition.
This problem with the community colleges has been around since the 1980's, when Ivy League schools decided to charge what the market would bare, rather than trying simply to meet their costs in order to make the school most affordable to students. That this problem is well known in education circles has not made Community Colleges change the method that they use to figure their fees and tuition from students.
I personally know of a great many young people, all of whom can not afford to go to Community College. Student loans and Pell grants aside, there are many in the local communities that the schools are sworn to serve that refuse to go deeper into debt just to get a basic college education.
And the real shame of it is when we compare ourselves with emerging Third-World nations. Many of these that now have their own good colleges and offer the entire populace free education right up to the PhD level. (Of course you need the grades to get that) They offer free dorms, food and education for their populace. We offer free billions of dollars to bailout airlines that give that money as bonuses to management and never pay back the money.
And while we live in a capitalistic society, it does not mean that we should have Community Colleges squeeze every single dime possible out of a person who wants to get some basic schooling. It's a damned shame and a black mark on We, as a nation of educated, modern people who live in the Most Enlightened Country in the world.
posted on October 24, 2002 03:41:17 PM new
saabsister
I personally don't believe that a Yale education is any better or deserves better pay than a state univeristy degree. My children have degrees from Yale, Johns Hopkins and the University of Maryland. One attended the community college before she graduated from high school. Frankly, I don't see any difference in the educational quality between all of these schools.
While I was taking art classes at the local community college, I saw students struggling to afford the tuition and school supplies. Many students had to work and attend school part time.
Affordable education should be available to every child. Why are we giving George Bush billions of dollars to fight a never ending war for oil while most children in this country cannot afford to go to school beyond 12th grade. Corporate greed and power hungry politicians are ripping this country to shreds.
posted on October 24, 2002 03:50:03 PM new
When I graduated high school, I don't believe there was a strong community college system in place in Georgia. My husband says "ditto" for Alabama. My younger sister went to a community college in Virginia. (That system was just beginning to attract students in the No. Va. area. Frankly, many of its students were not so financially strapped as they were academically unprepared for college classwork according to state university standards.)California, I suppose, lead the way with community college offerings.
So... I'm unsure whether community colleges were proposed as an alternative for financially strapped students or as a chance at college coursework for those who weren't accepted by the state university system because they weren't academically prepared by high school but deserved a second chance. Perhaps a bit of both.
If the Virginia school system is frittering away its tax dollars or making a profit, I'm sure there'd be many people interested in the details of how it's being done.
Thank you for the links. They pretty much dis-prove any greed factors. If Yale had an opperating budget of 1.68 billion and had a surplus of, only, $700,000, I would say they had a done a darn good job of managing their money. The writer suggests spending all of the endowment fund. That would be great while it lasts. But, without the income from the endowment, what would student costs be in the future. I don't know what the number of students is at Yale, but divide that into 1.68 billion and see what the tuition would have to be to run the school.
Yes, higher education is expensive and there are problems but, to say this is caused by greed and "for profit schools" is silly.
Borillar....You may want to read this part of your original post.
"As tax revenues decline, public colleges have searched for other sources of funding and for many, that has led to tuition increases" said Gaston Caperton, president of the College Board. "But despite this year's increases, public colleges and universities are still a remarkable value."
posted on October 25, 2002 07:23:54 AM new
Tex1...read the highlighted part.....
> "As tax revenues decline, public colleges have searched for other sources of funding and for many, that has led to tuition increases" said Gaston Caperton, president of the College Board. "But despite this year's increases, public colleges and universities are still a remarkable value."
Asking the president of the organization is sort of like asking a lawyer if you need a lawyer.... Would you have asked Kenneth Lay if you should invest in ENRON???
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I live in my own little world, but it is Okay...They know me here.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 25, 2002 07:25 AM ]
posted on October 25, 2002 07:38:27 AM new
From the article: "Figures released by the nonprofit College Board, best known as the owner of the SAT college entrance exam, show that tuition and fees at four-year public institutions now average $4,081, a rise of 5.8 percent over last year."
If the COLLEGE BOARD has no credibility, then the report has no merit and shouldn't have been posted in the first place. You can't argue the bad points from a report and then say the good points are not valid.
posted on October 25, 2002 11:55:25 AM new
Tex, I read the link that I posted. Here's one that I posted in another thread. The subject was brought up in Congress and the problems are clarified without the blurring done by PR experts from colleges. Since the server that it's on is having difficulties, I am posting it here:
"The Rising Cost of College Tuition" "What Drives The Cost and Price of College Tuition?"
"WASHINGTON - Governmental Affairs Committee Chairman Fred Thompson (R-TN) and Ranking Member Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) warned today that college tuition has risen too fast for many Americans."
"The warning came on the first day of a two-day investigative hearing before the Governmental Affairs Committee on the Rising Cost of College Tuition. The hearings focused on why tuition costs are so high, to what extent federal financial aid contributes to or mitigates rising tuition, and the impact of debt burden on a student’s educational and career choices."
"Apparently, colleges and universities themselves don’t have a good understanding of why tuition rates are rising so rapidly,” said Thompson. “Colleges have to do more to make themselves more transparent in explaining their finances. At the same time, the federal government needs to do a better job of looking at tuition rates that are rising faster than the cost of living. As this Committee has found with government agencies, you have to know the nature of the problem before you can work to solve it. ”"
"The high cost of tuition has an intense personal impact on individual families,” Lieberman said. “But if college becomes a luxury that an increasing percentage of the population cannot afford, the economic divide between the haves and the have-nots could undercut the American dream and stunt the nation’s economic growth.”"
"Senators Thompson and Lieberman noted that the high price of a college education is an issue of growing concern for American families. Over the past 20 years, tuition has more than doubled at both public and private schools, driven in large part by an increase in schools’ costs. And tuition rates have risen so fast that they have outpaced grants, loans, state appropriations and other subsidies to schools, as well as aid to students and their families. According to a report by the American Council on Education, a stunning 71 percent of Americans believe that “a four-year college education is not affordable.” Sixty-five percent of Americans list the cost of a college education as a top concern, ranking it ahead of violent crimes against children, children’s healthcare, and quality of public schools."
"The Senators added that ensuring affordable higher education is critical to maintaining national competitiveness in a global economy. Highly trained, skilled workers earning good wages power the economy, both because of the work they do and the revenue they generate as buyers and sellers of goods and services."
"Witnesses at the hearing explored the myriad issues that drive the cost and price of college tuition, including what colleges can do to contain costs. The hearing also examined the phenomenon of “merit aid,” or tuition discounting, which enables students to bargain for a more desirable tuition price than the one advertised."
Quotes like: "Apparently, colleges and universities themselves don't have a good understanding of why tuition rates are rising so rapidly," said Thompson.
and
"Over the past 20 years, tuition has more than doubled at both public and private schools, driven in large part by an increase in schools' costs." A large part, but the costs are not all of it!
Would an Economics Major classify that unused/unqualified portion of income as "profit"?
ed. UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Oct 25, 2002 11:56 AM ]
posted on October 26, 2002 06:16:50 AM new
Borillar,
"Would an Economics Major classify that unused/unqualified portion of income as "profit"?"
No, they would not. It would be considered surplus, for the following reasons:
Community colleges are funded by TAX dollars, so there can be no "profit". There is little surplus, if any. Tuition income does not come close to covering costs.
For private colleges, any surplus is rolled over into the next budget, or invested and becomes part of the endowment. The income from the endowment investments is used to defray shortfalls that tuitions don't cover.
I'm sure there are a number of reasons that costs have exceeded inflation. Unlike past generations, college freshmen have to be taught to read (joke). The most likely reason is that colleges want to provide the best they can for their students and improvements cost money.
One thing is for sure, greed and profit are not the causes, as there is NO profit.
posted on October 27, 2002 02:28:15 PM newOver the past 20 years, tuition has more than doubled at both public and private schools, driven in large part by an increase in schools’ costs.
If tuition had gone up 4% per year (which seems quite reasonable since this occurred during the 1980's and 1990's), tuition would have more than doubled in 20 years. You think 4%/year is excessive??
posted on October 27, 2002 02:39:15 PM new
I just wanted to add a comment about the quality of the education at an Ivy League versus your local Community College.
I went to MIT (which is quite a prestigious university). Fifteen years later, I was divorced with two small children. I had stayed home for 6 years with them (so my computer knowledge was way out of date <grin>. So I went to the local Community (Tech) College to take about 7-8 computer courses.
The quality of the *teaching* was far higher at the Tech College (Greenville Tech in Greenville, SC).
I'm totally serious - there was no comparison.
But I have to admit - when I went to my first (and only) job interview, they were much more impressed by the fact that I went to MIT fifteen years earlier than anything else.
posted on October 27, 2002 03:16:10 PM new
I found the same high quality teaching at our local community college, Montgomery College, in Maryland. The art and photography departments were rated much higher than the state university. The entrance requirements were just as high as the university. The fact that undergraduate classes at large universities are sometimes taught by graduate students may explain this difference.
One tip on returning to update your skills in a tech field is to take classes at night. Students in the night classes are usually more knowledgeable because they are already employed in the field and because of this, the class is usually held on a higher scale of difficulty than the same classes taken during the day. Students at night have the advantage of working with pros.
posted on October 27, 2002 03:53:54 PM new
It's true. The Community Colleges usually DO have better academics. One reason that I noticed was that in large universities, the professor is seldom in the classroom. He or she usually plms the coursework off on a graduate student while they go and pursue their pet research projects. Community Colleges do not have the research, so professors are required to actually teach the courses. The difference in the quality of education is tremendous.
. So I went to the local Community (Tech) College to take about 7-8 computer courses.
