posted on March 10, 2003 06:06:51 PM new
"The Soviet Union, not the U.S., defeated Germany, destroying over 100 Nazi divisions"
BULLSH*T. The Soviet Union was flat on its back and pushed out of the entire Eastern region of their homeland. American factories supplied the Soviet Union with the materiale' to take on the Germans, and they didn't begin in earnest the counter offensive until America entered the war in N Africa. Second to America's help was the Russian winter weather, and then perhaps the Soviets themselves. In any event, had the US not supplied the Soviet Union with materials, the Germans would have totally defeated them.
Bush's crusade against Iraq will go on with or without Turkey. The war will be akin to throwing a grenade into a huge hornet's nest. France, which lives next to the Arab world and has 5 million Muslim citizens, warns an invasion and occupation of Iraq will roil the entire region, spark more terrorism, and hit Europe with a dangerous backblast. But Bush couldn't care less, as he would say.
Only a spineless coward would care what terrorists "might" do if you make them mad. Again, France's first instinct is to surrender
posted on March 11, 2003 07:38:59 AM new
Where does this "neighbor" and "friends" sh*t come from ? There are no "neighbors" and "friends" in international relations. There are only interests.
France and Germany, as well as Russia,have billions of dollars of "interest" in Saddam the butcher staying in power. There is nothing neighborly, friendly, or noble about their positions.
France has as much as said that there is nothing the UN inspectors can bring to the table that would cause France to vote in favor of an invaision.
France is drowning in its own cynicism, and chronically non-performing economy due to socialism. France's economy hasn't worked since the Germans ran it.
posted on March 11, 2003 08:11:15 AM new
Up to know I thought the era of "revisionist" history by ignorant dopes had ended with "the holocaust never happened". Now we have the "Russians beat the Germans". In virtually any situation where the Russians did not outnumber the Germans 10 to 1, the Germans MASSACRED the Russians. The Russians should praise God that Hitler made command decisions.
posted on March 11, 2003 08:12:43 AM new
Funnier is the fact all those Countrys are voteing Nay...Iraq is not in our back yard,and we can afford to blow up a Country on other side of the world...Im sure those other Countrys feel warm and safe.
posted on March 11, 2003 09:06:49 AM new
Another half-truth. Kuwait is right next to Iqaq, and Qatar is just across the Gulf, they both fully support the US.
Iran and Saudi Arabia both support the US albeit covertly to avoid missles being launched against them- again missles and weapons Iraq should not have.
posted on March 11, 2003 09:25:28 AM new"Iran and Saudi Arabia both support the US albeit covertly to avoid missles being launched against them- again missles and weapons Iraq should not have."
I don't see any support...not even covert support.
Iran
"Democracy is favorable and is needed by all countries, but it is
not a compulsion. No one is allowed to interfere in the internal
affairs of other countries on this pretext and by resorting to force,"
he added, criticizing the wrong policies of US politicians.
He noted that continuation of such policies would reinforce
extremism and promote an atmosphere of terror and violation, adding,
"Unfortunately, such policies would undermine logic-oriented and
democratic movements in the Islamic World."
The Iranian president, however, stressed that any war on Iraq
would not be beneficial for regional countries and even the United
States in the long run, saying the oppressed Iraqi people will be the
first victims of this tragedy.
He expressed hope the war would be averted through efforts of all
countries and all nations will co-exist peacefully.
posted on March 11, 2003 09:26:06 AM new
The article starts out with "France is America's True Friend". NO....NOT TRUE. True friends, allies don't stab you in the back. They don't send their diplomats all over the world to oppose your position. The French are not just opposing the US, they are actively working against us around the world.
So enough with all the bombast about Word War II your op-ed piece says. Okay...let's put the past aside. Let's speak of the here and now. France is no longer allied with America, but rather with Iraq where they have lucrative financial oil deals with one another. That's being 'friends' with Saddam not America.
posted on March 11, 2003 09:30:20 AM new
How nice of us to fight Kuwaits war,finish up all the bad feelings between the 2 Countrys.Of course Kuwait wants to back us.
posted on March 11, 2003 10:32:18 AM new
Yeah j-mama, poor Kuwait is just like poor Poland after Germany marched through it in WWII. Those Poles had no right for England to declare war and try to help them. It was Polands war right? Then it was France's war, then it was Russia's war.
This attitude is so much like those pacifists and peace at any pricers in the 1930s. That attitude got us a world war with millions dead.
Churchill called WWII the "unnecessay war" because it all could have been prevented in the 1930s had the world stuck together and made Hitler obey the cease fire agreements. And if he didn't obey, invade and take him out of power. Just think of the millions of lives that would have been saved had the world listened to the lone voice of Churchill in the 1930s.
You can not change the past, but you can shape the future by paying attention to the past.
posted on March 11, 2003 02:02:19 PM newFrance has few friends because it has so little to offer.
BY PAUL JOHNSON Tuesday, March 11, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST
With the collapse of the Soviet Union, history did not end: It became more complicated. America's showdown with the Saddam regime in Iraq has brought some of these complexities into the open.
It is the theme of Robert Kagan's "Of Paradise and Power" that "the West" is no longer a meaningful unity. A chasm, he argues, has opened between America and Europe. On the one hand, America believes in a Hobbesian world where life is "nasty, brutish and short" unless a righteous Leviathan, the U.S., "keeps them all in Awe." To do this, overwhelming force must not only be created but, if necessary, used. On the other hand, the Europeans, lacking force, believe in a Kantean vision of "Perpetual Peace" in which, on the model of the European Union, disputes are resolved by discussion and compromise.
By this analysis, the democratic West has divided into two: realist America, putting its trust in physical power, and idealist Europe, trusting to intellectual authority and multilateralism. It is true that, as Mr. Kagan makes clear, American foreign policy retains a strong idealist element, but it is its muscular willingness to act with force, alone if it must, that Mr. Kagan defends here, and convincingly. And of course it is Iraq where America proposes to use its power at the moment.
In "The War Over lraq," Lawrence F. Kaplan and William Kristol describe the horrific record of the Saddam regime and the steps that persuaded the U.S. government to replace it. On the evidence soberly presented in this timely book, it is hard to see how Iraq, which has twice invaded neighboring states, can be changed except by force. It is misleading to argue that Iraq is a small state: Saddam has four or five times the killing power that Hitler had in 1939 and more than Stalin had when NATO was formed. If Saddam achieves his aim of acquiring "dirty" atomic bombs, his capacity for evil will exceed that of Hitler and Stalin put together.
Mr. Kagan despairs that Europe cannot muster the will to oppose such a regime, but what is "Europe"? As Mr. Kagan uses the term, there are only three "European" states: France, Belgium and Germany. Britain is European only geographically, for emotionally and politically the English Channel is wider than the Atlantic. The British do not regard Americans as foreigners but as family (irritatingly so at times). American and British armed forces are increasingly integrated and in intelligence, now of growing importance, operate as almost a single organization.
But two other "Europes" are emerging, which Mr. Kagan might have paid more attention to. One is the southern tier of Spain, Portugal, Italy and the Balkans, which repudiate French leadership and prefer Britain. Another is the eastern tier, led by Poland but including Austria, Hungary, the Czechs and Slovaks, the Slovenes and former Soviet satellites such as Romania and Bulgaria. They look to the U.S. for help, protection and guidance.
France is playing the peace card because it is the only one it holds. But for fragile entities like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, France, which recently failed to impose its military will on a small West African state (the Ivory Coast), has nothing to offer. In the end, as Hobbes pointed out, covenants are useless without swords to enforce them.
Mr. Kagan might have also paid more attention to personalities and leaderships. It was Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher and Pope John Paul II who began the process, from outside, that produced the implosion of the Soviet empire. Again, it was Mrs. Thatcher who persuaded an uncertain President Bush that he must reverse the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait. And if Mrs. Thatcher had still been in office when the war ended, we can be certain she would have insisted that the allied victory be followed by the destruction of the Saddam regime. If Bush Sr. had not weakly allowed Saddam to stay in power, all Bush Jr.'s present troubles would have been avoided; indeed, it is possible that 9/11 would not have taken place.
Personalities rather than deeper forces often play a determining role in Old Europe. The EU, far from being an embodiment of the rule of law, as Mr. Kagan argues, is fundamentally corrupt and in a sense lawless. French governments invariably break or ignore its rules when they conflict with national interests. Jacques Chirac is an opportunist with a long record of malfeasance. If he did not enjoy ex officio immunity, he would be under indictment. His current anti-Americanism is in part an effort to win over his accusers on the left.
Chancellor Schröder is a confused and depressed figure who does not know what to do about Germany's stagnant economy. To tag along behind Mr. Chirac at least gives him a role from which a certain base popularity may be squeezed. Silvio Berlusconi of Italy, like Mr. Chirac, is fighting off criminal charges. But at least he does not pose as the champion of the rule of law.
For all these reasons, I trust that American policy makers will not accept the view that basic differences exist between America and Europe. What they should try to avoid are entangling alliances in which a single rogue power, like France, has the right to inhibit America's pursuit of her vital national interests.
This means Washington must take a critical look at NATO and the United Nations, neither of which reflects America's true singularity as the world's only superpower. America should look, rather, to bilateral deals with powers that really matter, like Russia, China, India and Japan--deals based, like the special relationship with Britain, on a practical community of interests. What America should avoid, in any case, is legal obligations that prevent it from doing what it knows to be right and necessary.
Mr. Johnson's latest book is "Napoleon," in the Penguin Lives series.
posted on March 11, 2003 03:05:51 PM new
I'm truly shocked at this thread.
There would be no United States of America as we know it without the support of France.
After WW1 it was estimated that the average height of a French Male was reduced by almost 1 foot! Such was the effect on the population from the war.
France took it in the teeth while America sat on the fence, even while the US was still supplying Germany!
France is not perfect, after all, it's French.
But it has always been an ally. It has always been family and like any family sometimes members don't agree or get along.
There would not be any Democracy in America if not for that created in France.
The fact is that this has been botched and bobbled and it is only getting worse.
The US is putting itself in a position that leaves it no option to save face.
Tomorrow, if Saddam capitulates, turns over his weapons, etc, what is going to happen?
Was all of what has happened and its costs been worth it to the United States Interests?
If Iraq falls and Iran exerts pressures on the citizens of Iraq to vote in an eventual Democracy that the country go Fundamentalist like Iran will that have solved anything?
Mexican Stand-offs always lead to messes.
Some messes can't be cleaned up.
Stephen King once wrote "#*!@ wipes." Sometimes you can't wipe it up and that's when you're in trouble.
Right now the US is in a position where the chief reason they can't afford to spend more time on non-war processes is simply because of the cost of supporting the forces sitting around Iraq!!
I sincerely wish that those of you hawks posting in this thread could get a one way ticket straight to the front. Let's see how loudly you would post when it's your butt on the lines instead of those poor soldiers who for no fault of their own are risking their valuable lives doing the deeds of people like you.
posted on March 11, 2003 03:13:48 PM new
Those poor soldiers were adults when they VOLUNTEERED and signed up. They knew perfectly well what they were doing. And if you'd go speak to some of them you'll find they're ready to do as their commander-in-chief asks.
posted on March 11, 2003 09:05:45 PM new
DeSquirrel
Thanks, Sent the link to a bunch of real Americans.
I got an email the other day about all our GI's buried in France from WWI and WWII. Suggessted we bring them all home. I think that was a little over the top but who am I to say.
France is a nothing nation of socialist crap people. They are trying to be a major power but they aren't. This is there moment in the sun. They will burn bright for another week or so and disappear.
I've heard of several that are boycotting French products. I will too. Not that it matters. I don't drink French wines of eat French cheese. I told my wife I wouldn't buy her that German BMW Z3 now that Germany won't support us. She laughed. She knew I couldn't afford it anyway.
France was never a real friend. Not to us. Not to anyone. They are a society that is wrapped up in themselves. They are not giving people. They are takers.
If anyone wants to throw the Statue of Liberty "Gift" in, remember this. They gave it to us because we took the European refugees that were flooding their country. Gave it to us so we wouldn't stop doing so.
posted on March 12, 2003 03:00:55 AM new
Hee's another E-mail that's going around. Got to love it.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
THE BUNNY AND THE SNAKE
Once upon a time (allegedly) in a nice little forest, there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.
One day, the bunny was hopping through the forest, and the snake was slithering through the forest, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down. This, of course, knocked the snake about quite a bit.
"Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."
"It's quite OK," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is much the same as yours. I, too, have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother. Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out what you are, so at least you'll have that going for you."
"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny.
So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're covered with soft fur; you have really long ears; your nose twitches; and you have a soft cottony tail. I'd say that you must be a bunny rabbit."
"Oh, thank you! Thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement.
The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me."
So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth and slippery, and you have a forked tongue, no backbone and no balls .... I'd say you must be French." (or Hans Blix!!!!!)
posted on March 12, 2003 07:23:02 AM newThe French,our best friends
Received this email.....here's how other's view the French.
France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes."
---Mark Twain
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."
--- General George S. Patton
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
--Norman Schwartzkopf
"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it."
---- Marge Simpson
"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
---Jacques Chirac, President of France
"As far as France is concerned, you're right."
---Rush Limbaugh,
"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."
--- Regis Philbin
"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know."
--- P.J O'Rourke (1989)
"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it."
---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona
"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people."
--Conan O'Brien
"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't
help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!"
---Jay Leno
"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag."
--David Letterman
Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.
How many frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? Nobody knows because it has never been done!
posted on March 12, 2003 09:13:35 AM new
If you want friends that only listen and believe in you, hang on your every word, agree to all your demands and are like puppets on a string...get a dog...or a Bushbot conservative.
Doesn't the concept of sovereignty mean anything to you people? Doesn't the concept of FREEDOM and LIBERTY mean anything to you? It means no one tells our country what we have to do and WE DO NOT TELL OTHER COUNTRIES WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO!
You Bushbots are LUDICRIS, RIDICULOUS. You probably get up every morning a wipe your butts with the Constitution and the Declaration of INDEPENDENCE! It means NOTHING to you does it. Everyone must agree with you or they are wrong. Which is the COMMUNIST way! THINK, people, THINK!!!
If the Neo-Conservative agenda goes through, be prepared to eat your words. Does the word "Gulag" means anything to you? How about "KGB"
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
edited to apologize for comparing a dog to a Bushbot. Dogs have more sense of honor and decorum....
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 12, 2003 09:16 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2003 09:27:13 AM new
Mlecher, please wake up and join the real world...that fairyland you are living in is causing you to sound like an idiot...
posted on March 12, 2003 09:41:24 AM new
Yeah 12pole,
I live in a fairyland, a fairyland where America still believes in the principles it was founded on, where Americans are better than they apparently are. Where freedom and liberty are held in high esteem. Where Americans could be proud and hold their heads high because we stood for what was right and good. Where other countries wanted to aspire to be like us.
Guess I was wrong, we have people like you. Everything you righties want now, is what the right wing hated and feared the most in the Communist regimes. I guess the saying is true: "What you hate the most, you become"
You are the New Communists of this millenium.......
Someone posted a joke about a rumbling in the French countryside as the WWII veterans turned in their graves. The rumblings were probably cheers from the dead, as the French exercised their free will, the main thing those soldier died for! What about the rumblings in this country? As all those who fought to make us or keep us free turn in their graves as all the blood they spilt turns out to be for nothing as our freedom and liberty are being ripped away from us, for the cause of "security and safety".
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 12, 2003 09:55 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2003 02:28:51 PM new
"exercising your free will" would be to abstain. Voting "no" is stabbing your friend in the back.
To paraphrase French representatives: "we shouldn't discard our relationship with the US for some murdering dictator"
This is just a case where weak politicians maintain their positions by pandering to public sympathy. Whether it's the German premier trying to deflect the responsibility for the horrendous economy or the French trying to play world power, the easiest route has always been to tweak Uncle Sam. This has worked brilliantly in the past because we did nothing but play along. But not this President. The day is coming when the the French & Germans ring the phone to say "all is forgiven" and find the number unlisted. That day can't come too soon.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Mar 10, 2003 04:49 PM ]
