posted on March 28, 2003 05:09:19 PM new
Builder says bombs can't bust Saddam's bunker
Reuters News Service
BERLIN - The German architect of one of Saddam Hussein's main bunkers in Baghdad said today the Iraqi leader can survive anything short of a direct hit with a nuclear bomb if he stays within its 1.5 metre thick walls.
"It could withstand the shock wave of a nuclear bomb the size of the Hiroshima one detonating 250 meters away," said Karl Esser, a security consultant who designed the bunker underneath Saddam's main presidential palace in Baghdad.
U.S.-led troops will also find it hard to fight their way in through its three-ton Swiss-made doors, Esser told Reuters in an interview.
A retired Yugoslav army officer who helped build other bunkers for Saddam also told Reuters this week that the shelters were impenetrable and could survive an atomic bomb.
CNN reported today that U.S. B-52 bombers dropped a two ton (4,500 lb) "bunker busting" bomb on the capital for the first time in the campaign.
The palace bunker can accommodate 50 people and has two escape tunnels, one leading 200 metres to the Tigris river.
It was built in 1982 and 1983 by German firm Boswau & Knauer, which merged into what is now the Walter-Bau AG building group.
At the time Esser was a consultant for a German government-sponsored civil protection body and had his own company, Schutzraumtechnik Esser GmbH, which supplied equipment for Saddam's bunker.
Whether Saddam is using the bunker or is even still alive is unclear, with London and Washington saying they were not convinced that television broadcasts he has made since the war started were live.
The U.S. and Britain launched the war on Iraq last week with a bombing attack on Baghdad intended to target Saddam, and have pounded the city for nine days.
But Esser said "bunker busting" bombs like the one dropped today would fail to penetrate the 1,800 square-metre bunker because they first have to get though the palace built directly above it.
"The presidential palace above gives natural protection so the bunker can only be cracked by ground troops or a tactical nuclear bomb," said Esser.
The bunker ceiling itself, made of steel-reinforced concrete and up to two metres
(yards) thick, was designed to withstand the direct impact of a 230 kg bomb, said Esser.
"It's not a combat bunker, it's an air raid shelter, otherwise it would have had to be built with gun slits and a variety of other features," said Esser.
"Ground troops could get in by taking out the doors with bazookas and explosives."
Construction took place at a time when western companies were legally supplying Saddam with arms and equipment during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war.
Esser said he assumes the plans of the bunker had been passed on to Germany's foreign intelligence service.
Esser remembers giving Saddam a personal tour of the bunker's features, which include a water tank, electricity generator, air filter, 30 square meter command centre and so-called electromagnetic pulse protection system -- to shield electrical circuits from the impact of an explosion.
"He was satisfied," said Esser. "He was totally friendly. He was wearing civilian clothes and looked like an ordinary civil servant but you could tell he was important because everyone immediately went quiet when he started talking."
Esser said he had no qualms about having helped to protect a dictator likened to Hitler.
"It's not just one person getting protection, it's several people, it's the palace staff as well. I just see it as an achievement of bunker technology," said Esser.
posted on March 28, 2003 05:36:45 PM new
So what, so did US. Public knowledge that US support of Iraq during Iran-Iraq war were the following US companies: Spectra Physics, Honeywell, Dupont, Eastman Kodak, Bechtel, Tektronix, Unisys, Rockwell and HP. According to papers released by UN their involvement was military. Heck go back to the 80's and find out that we sold them virus and plagues. All of this information is open to public and has been printed in Washington Post, NY Times, Time, Newsweek etc. It just shows that we help those who are helping us until they no longer help us and then the worm turns.
posted on March 28, 2003 09:59:49 PM new
Here's how we should clear the bunkers. After we take Baghdad, we set up drilling rigs over the bunkers. Bore a few holes down in the bunkers and then pump gasoline down in them.
posted on March 28, 2003 11:30:23 PM new
So lets just let him enjoy the miracles of technology and his investment. The answer is simple. Don't bother trying to penetrate, just put 24 armed guards out and shoot anyone that exits. Turn it into a very expensive tomb.
posted on March 29, 2003 08:05:00 AM new
So bear...was this is another impotent attempt to vilify another country by tying it to Saddam?
Then vilify your own "Gods of the Present Administration". As baylor put it, many AMERICAN companies sold WAR MAKING materials. A bunker is a purely DEFENSIVE items. Therefore, you MUST vilify the Regean Administration for working so hard to keep Saddam in power, and the Sr. Bush administration for keeping him in power in the beginning. These REPUBLICAN administrations are the ones that sold him the chemical weapons, the biological agents, and IDENTIFIED and helped him ELIMINATE his opposition no matter how DEMOCRATIC the opposition's intentions. Yet you have repeatedly worshipped the ground they walk upon. And vilify Germany because they build and AIR RAID SHELTER, a defensive item.
Warmongering Hypocrite!
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
posted on March 29, 2003 08:10:21 AM new
I don't think Saddam is in the 'shelter'. With our intellegence saying they're watching trucks come into Iraq bringing equipment in to help Saddam, I wouldn't at all be surprised if he was 'transported' back to Syria in one of them. I've read several reports that his family has been there for awhile already.
Yes, there is going to be some real evaluation of our relationships with our so-called 'allies' when this war is over. Both in the UN and with NATO.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 29, 2003 08:11 AM ]
posted on March 29, 2003 09:21:08 AM new
Contract is a contract. Business is business. So why blame a private company for selling bunkers or anything else as long as its legal under their law to do so.
This does not make them pro saddam or anything else, its about making money. Thats the capalist way.
Nobody, but nobody has "clean hands" when it comes to dealing with all sorts of unsavory types in the world as long as it serves ones own vested interests.
posted on March 29, 2003 09:34:14 AM new
trai - I agree, in part, with what you're saying. But those governments do have control over UN listed illegal weapons that have been sold since the first UN resolution in 1991, as all countries do. And, if reports of what's been found in Iraq are to be believed, there are dates on some of these weapons sold by the Russians and France that supposedly prove these sales have taken place since the UN sanction said they shouldn't be.
Just like now...we're hearing that Syria is sending in military weapons, and Iran fighters....that's going to creat a BIG problem if it continues. The US isn't going to sit back and continue to allow our troops, already there, to have more issues to deal with.
I understand what you are saying, however when it comes to arms sales it can and does get a bit tricky.
Say russia sells a batch of ak47 rifles to say india and then india[or whoever] resells some or all to syria and it just goes on and on.
Now does russia know where their last sale winds up in the end? Maybe or maybe not.
The U.S. does the same thing just like everyone else as long as it serves the purpose.
There is nothing new about this as it has been going on forever and a day.
Arms dealers work with a lot of third parties in this line of work. As long as they get paid they do not worry about where this stuff winds up in the end.
posted on March 29, 2003 11:12:57 AM new
Trai - in additition to the route/method you just mentioned, there is another method for getting Russian arms... blackmarket. When communism fell, security went to hell. There was no money to pay the military, and no effective tracking of whereabouts of much of their equipment. Mny hungery COs turned to selling off pieces on the black market. That type of money is easy to get addicted to and even as finances have improved, their lust for the buck is not quenched. The black market is the bain of the Russian governments existance.
posted on March 29, 2003 11:24:40 AM new
neonmania
Very true. It is a problem where it concerns some of the more nasty type of weapons. Hard to keep track when a country is broke.
In response to your mindless diatribe, take the following quiz:
Name this country...
709,000 REGULAR (ACTIVE DUTY) PERSONNEL.
293,000 RESERVE TROOPS.
EIGHT STANDING ARMY DIVISIONS.
20 AIR FORCE AND NAVY AIR WINGS WITH 2,000 COMBAT AIRCRAFT.
232 STRATEGIC BOMBERS.
19 STRATEGIC BALLISTIC MISSILE SUBMARINES WITH 3,114 NUCLEAR WARHEADS ON 232 MISSILES.
500 ICBMs WITH 1,950 WARHEADS.
FOUR AIRCRAFT CARRIERS AND 121 SURFACE COMBAT SHIPS AND SUBMARINES PLUS ALL THE SUPPORT BASES, SHIPYARDS, AND LOGISTICAL ASSETS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN SUCH A NAVAL FORCE.
IS THIS COUNTRY.......
RUSSIA ? NO
CHINA ? NO
GREAT BRITAIN ? NO
FRANCE ? WRONG AGAIN
MUST BE USA ? STILL WRONG
GIVE UP
?
THESE ARE THE AMERICAN MILITARY FORCES THAT WERE ELIMINATED DURING THE ADMINISTRATION? OF "BILL CLINTON AND AL GORE".
posted on March 30, 2003 11:18:24 AM new
BY A BILL INTRODUCED AND FINALIZED DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION
Chew on that for awhile.
oops, thought you had something didn't you?
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 30, 2003 11:19 AM ]
