posted on June 24, 2003 10:42:36 AM new
On the news last night they said the reason Saddam's secretary spilled his guts was the US threatened to put his family in prison.
What shocked me was how off-hand they could say that with no shame or apology.
When I was growing up in the post WWII era the common formula to demonstrate how evil the Nazis were was to show some poor sod strapped to a chair being interrogated and the jack-booted swine in black would tell him -
"Ve have ways to make you tok. You 'ave relatives living in Germany?"
It was taken as a demonstration of complete vial ruthlessness to presume to attack a man's innocent family for his deeds.
So - where is the shame? Where is the humanity? What is the point of winning against the garbage bin of human depravity by becoming as shitty as they are? Where is the honor in hooding and chaining prisoners of war and discarding the laws of war by refusing them shelter from the sun and sleep depriving them and withholding food and
bathing or exercise until they break and attempt to suicide?
These people have four thousands years of experience fighting without quarter. They are used to kidnapping hostages to force the return of family members and engaging in a slow war of years indistiquishable from a hill clan feud. The US can look foreward to losing a soldier a day for a hundred years if they want to stay. Until there is a history of grievence and hatred built up that will never be worn down just as there is between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It always just degenerates into a game of tit for tat that nobody every really remembers who is one hit up after a thousand murders and the other side is always the one who is provoking further bloodshed and your side is always the one who is righteously responding.
Nobody ever has the will or means to kill them all on one side - which is what it would take to end it once the division is firm.
They are all every one fools.
As Mecurio romeo's brother would say - A pox on both their houses. They are getting what they have sown.
posted on June 24, 2003 11:34:06 AM new
I agree gravid. It's the absolute hypocracy of having the good guys trying to get rid of the bad guys when they're both equal.
posted on June 24, 2003 11:39:38 AM new
You know, gravid, you made some valid points. And the beat goes on, as they say. I am sorry to say I am ashamed of our behavior in this way. I have to say "our" because I think we have the power to change things, but we haven't. We (me included) sit around and complain to each other about how things are being done, we moan and throw out hateful words for an administration that has made a career out of lying. But, that's all we've done. Maybe we are all just waiting for someone else to do it, I don't know.
There was a time when America would not have stood for what is happening. Did 911 actually change everyone that much? If so, the terrorists are winning. Are we to sit back and watch as this adminstration performs their own acts of terrorism and feel that it is okay because it's an eye for an eye?
There was an interesting commentary in the Cleveland Free Times. Here is an excerpt (too long to type all of it):
IMPEACH BUSH
If Nixon and Clinton faced impeachment, W should, too
George W. Bush told us that Iraq and Al Qaeda were working together. They weren't. He repeatedly implied that Iraq had had something to do with 9/11. It hadn't. He claimed to have proof that Saddam Hussein possessed banned weapons of mass destruction. He didn't. As our allies watched in horror and disgust, Bush conned us into a one-sided war of aggression that killed and maimed thousands of innocent people, destroyed billions of dollars in Iraqi infrastructure, cost tens of billions of dollars, cost the lives of American soldiers, and transformed our international image as the world's shining beacon of freedom into that of a marauding police state.
George W. Bush "has undermined the integrity of his office, has brought disrepute on the Presidency, has betrayed his trust as President, and has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice, to the maifest injury of the people of the United States."
Nixon and Clinton escaped ciminal prosecution for burglary, perjury and obstruction of justice. George W. Bush, however, stands accused as the greatest mass murdere in American history. The Lexington Institute estimates that the U.S. killed between 15,000 and 20,000 Iraqi troops during the fraudulently justified invasion of Iraqu, plus 10,000 to 15,000 wounded. More than 150 U.S. soldiers were killed, plus more than 500 injured. A new Associated Press study of Iraq civilian casualties confirms at least 3,240 deaths. Although Bush, Rumsfeld, Colin Powel and Condoleeza Rice denied such legal niceties in the concentration-camp inmates captured in their illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistant, these high-ranking Administration henchmen should be quickly turned over - after impeachment proceedings for what might properly be called Slaughtergate - to an international tribunal for prosecution of war crimes.
Anything less would be anti-American.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on June 24, 2003 12:07:13 PM new"You know, gravid, you made some valid points. And the beat goes on, as they say. I am sorry to say I am ashamed of our behavior in this way. I have to say "our" because I think we have the power to change things, but we haven't. We (me included) sit around and complain to each other about how things are being done, we moan and throw out hateful words for an administration that has made a career out of lying. But, that's all we've done. Maybe we are all just waiting for someone else to do it, I don't know."
What are you ashamed of Cheryl? Bringing this information and injustice to light is the first step in the process of change. Hopefully our votes will make a change.
posted on June 24, 2003 12:17:34 PM new
But what if the only people you can vote for are, or end up being liars? I'm sure the Republicans put much faith in Bush only to end up with egg on their faces. I feel sorry for them because I don't think they realized, in advance, how much of a deciever Bush really was/is. Will the next guy be better or more honest? Or is corruption too ingrained in government?
posted on June 24, 2003 12:25:22 PM new
The stange thing, Kraftdinner is that they still don't realize it.
About torture...
Alan Dershowitz, the criminal defense lawyer, has suggested that since torture is bound to occur that the best policy would be to set up procedures to control it, such as requiring a warrant to torture. His suggestion is stated here.
• Extremely limited situations
• Hard evidence linking the suspect to terrorism
• 90% certainty that the suspect has information
• Proof that authorities had exhausted all other recourses, e.g., incentives such as immunity
• Approval from a high public official (Supreme Court Justice or a special-purpose national court)
• Nonlethal techniques designed to produce excruciating pain but no permanent injury (sterile needles under the fingernails)
Mr Dershowitz, is using classic utilitarian reasoning, according to ethics scholar Lance Simmons. As described by Mr Simmons, Utilitarianism is "a philosophical and ethical doctrine that says the right action is the one that produces the best long-term consequences." In short, the end justifies the means.
Remember the 60's? When we didn't agree with something we went out and tried to do something about it. We didn't simply discuss it amongst ourselves. We went out and protested it (ah, those were the days). What I am ashamed of now is that we don't seem to have to same energy we had back then to make things change. Are we simply older? Are we more complacent because of that?, or is it that protesting just does not work anymore and that protesting for change in the country can get you seriously hurt these days? Just look at what happened to some of the war protestors. Definately, our vote will make a difference. But, first we have to un-dupe, deprogram, and open the eyes of some Americans who still refuse to see the light. And how do we do that? My son can't see past the "we kicked Saddam Husseins a**" mentality and neither can my boyfriend. So, suggestions on how to make more Americans see the truth would be very welcomed. I'm willing to do what it takes (within the law, of course). That's how much I've had it with this administration's garbage. I'm volunteering for Dennis Kucinich, sending emails to everyone I know and just plain talking up a storm. I don't know if that's enough. I think we need everyone to do this. That is, everyone who can see with open eyes and think with a clear mind.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on June 24, 2003 01:48:20 PM newCheryl You are doing something to make a change. You're putting sweat equity into working for a candidate you believe in. Another thing that really heartens me is that even a year ago, most message boards like this one were dominated by conservatives who quickly shouted down any dissenter that dared to speak up. (Can't actually speak for this one, I spent most of my time in the eBay outlook then.) These days it seems that the numbers are roughly equal on most boards and moderate voices on the right AND left are finally chiming in.
That doesn't take away from the horror that is currently being created by our government - secret trials, invasions backed by lies, torture, corruption. I try to tell myself that there's always a pendulum effect and that I'm just seeing the extreme end of one swing. The trouble is that I was telling myself that a year ago, and I never would have imagined how much further into the darkness that pendulum would go in just a year's time.
------------------- We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.
------------The Talmud
posted on June 24, 2003 01:51:04 PM new
But in the 60's people that did protest were killed or jailed, just like today. Protesting will always be viewed as anti-American because the government has brain-washed everyone into thinking they know best.
The apathy part comes from the remote controls, computers, tv's, etc. The easy part is to sit and watch a one-sided view of a war and make comments. The hard part is knowing that all the facts aren't presented and speaking up about it when it goes against the grain. That's all you can do to try and make a difference imo.
posted on June 24, 2003 03:23:09 PM new
In the spirit of the conversation...
Consider the Iraqi scientists...They are all jailed.
Can someone please tell me why? Did they acticely engage in operations against the US? Well No.... Did they actively engaged in illegal activities against the US? Well No...
BUT DAMMIT, THEY MAY KNOW SOMETHING! And UNTIL THEY TELL US WHAT WE WANT (Notice, I did not say truth) WE WILL KEEP THEM LOCKED UP!
[ edited by mlecher on Jun 24, 2003 03:23 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2003 04:32:43 PM new
And the sad thing is you can get anyone to say just about anything with simple threats and intimidation - much less torture. So the information you get is likely to be crap. But it will be what the prisoner thinks you want to hear. Is that so very hard to figure out?
posted on June 24, 2003 05:45:27 PM new
We're heading down the same path as you.
What I've learn't from arguing on here is that we are all victims.
Americans aren't any 'worse' than me.
We can thank the powers that be, like a big fat greedy pig that sits at the trough gourging it's face while the rest of us are pushed aside and if we try to go near, we are pushed again and have our faces farted on.
Perhaps we in the 1st world have gone as fr as humanity is capable of (moraly) and the only way left to go is back.
I don't really believe that but it sure looks that way.
The rest of the world not only seems to be catching up, it is, and that would be good in itself, but we ARE going back.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore:
Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
- Inscription on the Statue of Liberty
To Cheryl,
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead
