posted on October 30, 2003 08:21:46 AM new
9-year-old arrested for waving toy gun
The Morning Journal
LORAIN -- A 9-year-old boy was arrested at gunpoint and handcuffed Saturday because he was waving a toy gun over his head while seated on a bench outside a store, according to a Lorain police report.
His mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr., told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway business that the gun was a toy. An officer aimed his weapon at the boy's head, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and arrested him for juvenile delinquency by reason of inducing panic, according to the police report.
Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting arrest when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a warning, according to a police report.
''He doesn't deserve this. He is not a bad kid at all. That's what I was trying to explain to the officer. It's just not fair,'' Saunders said.
Saunders was getting her hair done at the Northern Institute of Cosmetology on Broadway near Seventh Street when the incident began.
Saunders said she and her son were spending the day together . Saunders said her son got his hair cut first, and then he went outside to play while waiting on her.
A passer-by who saw the boy playing just before noon with a gun -- described by police as a black plastic toy gun -- called police, who responded to the scene and found the boy ''waving what appeared to be a black handgun above his head,'' according to a police report. The report said the gun was spray painted black and resembled a genuine gun.
At that point, Officer Joe Novosielski confronted the boy at gunpoint, ordering him to drop the gun and then lie on the ground, the report said.
Thomas, who his mother said has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, said he was frightened by the incident.
Lorain police said Novosielski handled the situation properly.
''Obviously, someone got scared and called the police. Nobody driving down the street could tell it was a toy gun, so that's where the panic comes in. We charge that to anyone doing that,'' Lt. Robert Poli said.
''We're not going to tolerate anyone walking down the street, sitting on a bench ... if he's waving a gun around,'' Poli said. ''You don't know it's a toy gun.''
Saunders said police were not even going to come inside the cosmetology institute to tell her they were arresting her son. She said she learned from another woman her son was being arrested.
Saunders, wearing curlers in her hair, said she raced out to the police car to attempt to intervene on her son's behalf.
''He (Novosielski) snatched me by the arm and cuffed me. People were just walking down the street shaking their heads. I did not cuss at him, and I did not yell at him, because I'm not that type of person. I feel I'm the one that was disrespected,'' Saunders said of her arrest.
When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer but moved away when told to, according to the report.
Police said Saunders pleaded with them not to arrest her son and to ''just give him a warning,'' according to the report. She also told police her son ''was just playing'' and that he didn't point the gun at anyone before asking police, ''Don't you have anything better to do?''
Saunders was eventually arrested after refusing to move away from the cruiser where her son had been placed, the report said. The officer told her to finish her business at the beauty salon and then come to the station to pick up her son, according to the report.
She is free on $750 bond and is scheduled to appear in Lorain Municipal Court today. The report of Thomas' arrest was forwarded to the juvenile court system, according to the police report.
Lorain County Prosecutor's Office spokesman Mark Hastings said the report had not been received yet.
posted on October 30, 2003 08:37:47 AM new
Said it before and I'll say it again...
"Zero tolerance allows for zero intelligence."
The whole situation should have been over when the mother told him it was a toy gun. But no, Officer Gung-Ho had to go all the way, even after he had the toy gun in his hand.
I already smell a lawsuit for mental anguish and traumatizing a child.
The mother "resisting arrest" COULD be made to stick however. No matter how stupid, you are supposed to cooperate with the police.
-------------------
Replay Media
Games of all kinds!
posted on October 30, 2003 10:28:36 AM new
Not proper police action in my opinion. But more important is the fact that a nine year ( with ADD issues) old was left outside unsupervised and out of eyesight of his mother.
As this story illustrates, it's not safe to let a kid play with a toy gun. Now, the guns look so real that police officers can't tell from a distance if they are real or not. Imagine what would happen if the child pointed the gun at the officer or another person nearby and misunderstood directions about dropping the weapon.
posted on October 30, 2003 01:56:35 PM new
granted they make toy guns look realistic, but this was a 9 year old in public playing, and how many kids out there playing with toys be it guns, or whatever, justifies police to act the way they did, it was police over reaction because of this terrorist fear we been getting lately, police are so stressed out these days , their about to snap, i remember when i was growing up whole neigbourhoods of kids were out there with toy guns and bow and arrows,running around in public, and nobody was freaking out then, so what happened to public patience, where did it go, did it die or something? Gotta be all this terroist fear being pushed by government.
posted on October 30, 2003 01:59:24 PM new
I agree about the over reaction...look at this one today at the Capitol.
Today...October 30, 2003
Toy Gun Triggers Capitol Shutdown
AP
Washington -- The House of Representatives was ordered shut down Thursday following a reported security breach at a nearby congressional office building, but police later determined that a plastic revolver and Halloween costume were to blame.
U.S. Capitol Police Chief Terence Gainer said "two staff members bringing in Halloween costumes" were responsible. "I don't think they had any ill intent," he said, adding he expected no charges to be filed.
Start to finish, the incident lasted two hours or less -- but it triggered a massive security response in a time of terrorism worries. Police in battle gear moved into the House's Cannon office building in pursuit of suspects. Across the street, the House was placed into an unscheduled recess for the first time since the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001.
posted on October 30, 2003 02:03:25 PM newso what happened to public patience, where did it go, did it die or something?
It's what is happening with our children -
Seventh-Grader Uses Gun to Steal Teacher's Car, Abduct Student
Thursday, October 30, 2003
MARION, La. — A 14-year-old boy brought a semiautomatic pistol (search) to school on Wednesday, robbed his teacher of his car keys and took a classmate hostage before leading deputies on a high-speed chase.
Police said the SUV with both boys inside was stopped without incident within 20 minutes, after a chase through northern Louisiana (search) and southern Arkansas reaching speeds up to 90 mph.
The teen, whose name was not released, was arrested in Arkansas (search), where he was being held until Louisiana authorities could question him. He waived extradition at a hearing in El Dorado, Ark.
"There's no rhyme nor reason nor anything that goes together on it," said Union Parish Sheriff's spokesman Carlton White.
Police and school officials at Marion High said the seventh-grader brought the gun into class in a backpack, and apparently hadn't had any earlier problems with the teacher or 12-year-old boy he abducted.
Authorities said the boy pulled out the gun during the day's first class, forcing the teacher to hand over the keys to his 1997 GMC Jimmy.
Teachers "went into emergency procedure ...and, gathered the children together" immediately after the holdup, school superintendent Tom Snell said.
The boy drove into Arkansas and sped away when a deputy tried to stop him, police said. He was stopped at the state line when deputies created a roadblock using two tractor-trailers and as many as eight patrol cars.
Marion High, which includes preschool through 12th grade, has a total of 218 students.
The boy faces felony fleeing charges in Arkansas, but a warrant in Louisiana lists aggravated kidnapping and armed robbery.
Marion, a town of 775, is near the Louisiana-Arkansas state line.
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
[ edited by wgm on Oct 30, 2003 02:03 PM ]
posted on October 30, 2003 02:28:37 PM new
"Now, the guns look so real that..."
I dunno about that. Have you seen the toy guns they sell nowadays? They are usually bright red or grey and "futuristic looking" for the most part. I haven't seen a realistic toy gun in ages! This type of story happens so often that toy manufacturers don't want to have anything to do with that kind of liability.
My 60+ year old father wanted a more realistic shaped light-gun to plug into a Playstation system. I looked and looked and could not come up with ANYTHING even remotely realist.
Now you've got me on a rant.
I just opened up the Halloween candy assortment I bought to give out tonight. In with the regular lollipops and such are little boxes of what we used to call "candy cigarettes" back in the days of old. Little sugary sticks with a red end to simulate the "burning end." If I remember right, the little boxes even were decorated like cigarette packs. I'd completely forgotten they ever existed until today.
Now they are simply "candy sticks" and the red ends are gone. I can only imagine the story behind that candy product, but I can guess how it went.
posted on October 30, 2003 02:47:54 PM new
I understand what you guys are saying but as long as police officers react like the one in skylight's post, it's not safe to let a kid play with a toy gun.
If you do a search on Ebay you may find toy guns that look similar to a real gun...especially at a distance.
posted on October 30, 2003 04:09:08 PM new
You can get real looking toy guns at the Dollar Store, here in Canada. What's everyone afraid of? When was the last time a 9 year old got caught with a real gun?
posted on October 30, 2003 05:14:40 PM new
Unfortunately, they don't get caught soon enough in the U.S.
The direct link between firearm availability and gun death was confirmed last month in a Harvard School of Public Health study published in The Journal of Trauma analyzing gun death among American children. That study showed that children living in the five states with the highest levels of gun ownership were 16 times more likely to die from unintentional firearm injury, seven times more likely to die from firearm suicide, and three times more likely to die from firearm homicide than children in the five states with the lowest levels of gun ownership. Additionally, children in the top five gun ownership states were twice as likely to die from homicide and suicide overall as children in the five lowest gun ownership states.
posted on October 30, 2003 10:55:36 PM new
There are realistic-looking toy guns out there--but these days they are sold with bright orange plug thingies in the muzzles so you can easily tell that they are toys.
My take on this: granted to toy gun was spray-painted black & evidently lacked the bright orange plug. I can see why soeone seeing it in passing might have called the cops. I can see why the cop took it seriously (given shooting incidents involving kids in this country) when he first approached the child. HOWEVER once he discovered that the gun was a toy, & with the mother being right there, there was absolutely NO NEED to a) arrest the child and b) to arrest the mother. A serious talk with both about the obvious dangers these days of playing/waving around a realistic toy gun and a warning should have been given and the matter allowed to drop. This officer went way overboard for absolutely no reason. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on October 31, 2003 05:32:13 AM new
As bunni stated, I was under the impression that all toy guns the have been manufactured in the past several years have the mandatory bright orange tip.
The fact that the 'toy' gun was spray painted black leads me to believe that there is more going on here than a child playing with a toy.
That item was intentionally altered to resemble a real gun.
As far as the officers reaction?
The child & parent may have thought the gun was a toy BUT without the bright tip, the officers perceived it to be real & being waved around innocently by a child ~ that's how innocent people die.
I can hear it now:
but we thought it was a 'pretend' gun.
Sorry, the only 'make believe' gun is made by holding up your thumb and first finger and saying 'bang bang'.
They did the right thing by getting it away from the child.
The following arrests??
Questionable.
That's where I think we are missing info.
Who spray painted the gun & why?
posted on October 31, 2003 06:25:53 AM new
I agree that the police over responded to that particular event, especially after it was determined that the gun was a toy. But the possibility of that kind of exaggerated reaction should be considered when kids play with guns.
BTW...I saw many toy guns on Ebay without colored tips.
posted on November 3, 2003 08:45:50 AM new
One day I was driving only about ten over the limit so traffic was passing me on both sides. A car full of teenage girls passed on the left and a pickup truck with teenage boys swooped in from my right and braked in front of me. When they were beside the girls one of two boys in the bed got up on his knees and pulled a black Uzzi up and pointed it at the girls. Not only did the weapon look real he looked like he knew how to hold it to let the recoil walk the line of fire horizontally across the target.
I honestly expected the next sound I heard to be like a giant tearing cardboard boxes and a shower of brass on my windshield. Instead it was a squirt of water going in the girl's window.
If I had been a cop behind them and had time to react I would have blown the kid away before he had a chance to fire. And no matter what you fools think it would have been the boys fault not mine. In a world where crazies do shoot up strangers in public places the toy gun has no function except as an elaborate way to commit suicide.
Once it is altered to look real it should be treated as real so the boy and his mother should face weapons charges.
posted on November 3, 2003 09:10:21 AM new
Apples and oranges. In the case referred to in this thread the boy wasn't aiming the toy gun at anyone. And it was quickly determined that the thing was in fact a toy. As I stated, they should have gotten a stern warning about the toy being altered to look real. But no arrests were warranted.
Now, if the boy had in fact been pointing the gun at someone & been shot while doing so (& this has happened in my area), then it would have been tragic but not the policeman's fault. But he wasn't doing that. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 4, 2003 05:50:22 AM new
If it is illegal to manufacture a toy gun that looks real obviously we can all agree it shoulkd be illegal to alter it to look real.
It calls for more than a warning as it as a killing waiting to happen.
posted on November 5, 2003 07:50:36 PM new
Why is it when you NEED a cop to take care of something that is really a threat to someone else,they are no where to be found. Yet a really stupid thing like this,they blow out of proportion and cause all kinds of problems for innocent people. No wonder children learn to hate cops.
