kraftdinner
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posted on March 22, 2004 01:41:43 PM new
've been thinking a lot about what Gravid's been saying in the past about freedom, and I wondered what freedoms we really have?
Sure, we can own property, but in reality, we really only rent it. We're allowed to work, but 6 months of our pay goes to taxes. We're free to travel, to some places. We're free to talk openly but not always without consequences. We're free to elect - A or B. These are just a few basic examples, but what other freedoms do we really have?
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logansdad
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posted on March 22, 2004 02:07:45 PM new
Kraft: Sure, we can own property, but in reality, we really only rent it.
What do you mean we only rent it? Don't you own in when the mortgage/loan is paid off??
These are just a few basic examples, but what other freedoms do we really have?
We are free to own guns.
We are free to think what we want.
We are free to wear what we want.
Impeach Bush
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge.
Bigotry and hate will not be tolerated.
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kcpick4u
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posted on March 22, 2004 02:16:14 PM new
I don't believe there has ever been absolute freedom for the human race. As race we have experienced more or less degrees of a idealistic concept. Take the Caveman for example, he did have a certain degree of freedom that we don't have today. However, could he just traverse the earth without a care, no soon or later he found himself trying to out run a large predator who had decide he was on the menue or running to save his life from a rival group of cave people who wanted to knock him off. As long as fear is a element of the human condition no true absolute freedom.
Logan: If you think you own property just forget about paying the taxes on it for a few years and you will find out who owns it.
[ edited by kcpick4u on Mar 22, 2004 02:39 PM ]
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kraftdinner
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posted on March 22, 2004 03:17:41 PM new
Hi KC! That's so true. That's what I'm getting at but you word it better. 
And yes, that's what I meant about never owning property (because of taxes, Logansdad.
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kcpick4u
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posted on March 22, 2004 04:07:26 PM new
Hi Krafty!
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NearTheSea
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posted on March 22, 2004 04:25:26 PM new
I'm going to consult the accountant here (Mikey ) and see if 6 months of his income goes to taxes. I don't think they do
And, we were messing around with the 'what if we won the lottery' and found you can pre pay taxes for as long as you want. So, if you did do that, you would own the home free and clear 
besides what logansdad said
Freedom of Religion (to practice or not to)
Freedom of Speech (what consequences are there on the internet? : ) )
There are a lot more, if you go live in a 'communist' country, say China... you don't have the freedom of having more than 1 child, and lots of other things, according to my SIL
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
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logansdad
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posted on March 22, 2004 04:50:05 PM new
kraft:
I forgot about the real estate taxes on a house...
What about a car? You dont have to continue paying taxes on a car once it is paid. Granted it will be worthless at some point in time, but that is another story.
Impeach Bush
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge.
Bigotry and hate will not be tolerated.
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gravid
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posted on March 22, 2004 04:52:05 PM new
So if you pay your estimated taxes for your projected lifetime you can be secure in your home? How very generous.
As to what consequences there are to speaking freely on the internet I'd like to point out all this stuff is archived very frequently and you have no idea what the chances are of you getting a knock on the door in three or four years for your disloyalty.
There was a piece on the news tonight that a fellow has a case before the Supreme Court. He was arrested because he refused to give his name to a police officer.
Notice he was not arrested and then refused. If he was arrested he would be told he has the right to be silent.
So if he is convicted it will establish he has less rights before he is arrested than after.
Does that seem counter-intuitive to anyone?
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kraftdinner
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posted on March 22, 2004 05:09:26 PM new
Religious freedom? I agree and disagree, Near. While we can practice what we want there are still boundaries you must believe in or you don't get in the club.
And I'm pretty sure the 6 month tax thing includes all taxes - sales tax, property tax, income tax, etc.
Logansdad, you have to pay for a licence and plates each year, plus gas, plus repairs, so cars don't count either. 
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NearTheSea
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posted on March 22, 2004 05:10:11 PM new
gravid, everyone has to pay taxes, how else would we have public schools, roads etc etc etc
as for a car, at least here, we have to pay for car tabs every year. If you have expired ones you get pulled over and ticketed
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
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kcpick4u
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posted on March 22, 2004 05:36:13 PM new
Dear Near the Sea
The assessment department has reviewed your lifetime pre-pay tax plan and due to your ability to pre-pay, have determined that you have been under taxed. In a ongoing effort to ensure everyone pays their fair share the following additional tax (outlined below) has been levied against you property and you will soon receive billing for the additional tax.
Thank You
The Taxman
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Linda_K
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posted on March 22, 2004 05:44:55 PM new
It's not 6 months. It varies each year. This year 'Tax Freedom Day' comes on April 19th.
Interesting chart on this link. Shows when tax freedom day was during the clinton administration and where it's been under this President.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html
Re-elect President Bush!!
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gravid
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posted on March 22, 2004 05:55:11 PM new
Yes but in a lot of European countries you don't have a tax on the person's first home.
So old people are not evicted or forced to sell because they can't pay the increasing tax on a fixed income.
These places set the tax on second homes or rental properties and commercial properties to get the funds they need.
I can't see any reason the government should have the right to put you out on the street from your home. That is a basic item of security everyone should have as a right.
There are plenty of other taxes and fees they can use.
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gravid
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posted on March 22, 2004 06:28:41 PM new
In MI we can put an initiative on the next general election and the legislature HAS to respond to it. They have 40 days to adapt it into law - make a counterproposal by it in the same election - or leave it to a vote of the people.
How many of you would sign a petition for an amendment to your state constitution to remove all tax on a person's primary residence?
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NearTheSea
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posted on March 22, 2004 06:50:40 PM new
LOL kcpick4u
If we had the means to prepay, I don't know if I would. This was a 'what if we won the lottery' thing'
and even if we did, I still would have to think hard about prepaying the taxes!
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
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NearTheSea
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posted on March 22, 2004 06:53:44 PM new
gravid, maybe I would, but if that law went into effect..... you would have to factor in what it means if the state and/or county loses the money on property taxes...... what will it effect.. how much more will you pay for this or that. It will have an effect on something.
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
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gravid
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posted on March 22, 2004 09:05:16 PM new
Yes of course there would have to be a different funding source.
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Libra63
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posted on March 22, 2004 10:42:06 PM new
I think this is it. Tax Freedom Day
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html
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Libra63
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posted on March 22, 2004 10:48:37 PM new
gravid then how would you fund the schools, i.e employees etc., city employees, county employees. Where would that money come from?
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2004 02:48:51 AM new
I don't really care except that it should be something that does not give the state the power to remove the neccesities of life.
The legislature would have to get together and do their job for at least one session.
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2004 03:52:32 AM new
"I don't care..."
Says it all about gravid and his rants... fkn whiner...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
http://www.nogaymarriage.com/
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2004 04:15:47 AM new
Yes twelve I'm not like you that figures he has to tell everyone what to do in great detail. Our legislature might actually have to Do something for one session besides sit and pick their noses.
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2004 04:40:36 AM new
I noticed you conveintly skipped Libra's questions...
You are not part of the solution, so I am guessing you are part of the problem...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
http://www.nogaymarriage.com/
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kraftdinner
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posted on March 23, 2004 11:06:24 AM new
LoL Twelve! As if you've put forward any solutions to ANYTHING!
Libra, you're missing the point. Taxes and death are a sure thing - we all know that. I'm asking about what freedoms we have. You know the line that's used ad infinitum... "we're fighting to keep our freedoms"? What freedoms are they? Do you know?
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2004 12:12:23 PM new
Don't you wish kraft... just no one will do them..
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
http://www.nogaymarriage.com/
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Linda_K
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posted on March 23, 2004 12:14:38 PM new
KD - Maybe you'd like to share with us when 'tax freedom day' is for Canada. You mentioned the six months....is that how long your citizens work to pay their taxes? Do you have something similar to our tax freedom day?
Here are our Bill of Rights....and the amendments that followed.
With those 'rights' comes responsibilities. And taxes are a part of that responsibility.
http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/constitution_amendments_11-27.html
Re-elect President Bush!!
edited to add:
When I say we're fighting for our rights, I'm referring to keeping our system of government exactly as it has been.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 23, 2004 12:19 PM ]
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kraftdinner
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posted on March 23, 2004 12:32:13 PM new
Twelve, I'm talking about REAL solutions. Shooting 'homos' doesn't qualify.
Linda, I think our tax day was around the end of July last year (yuck!).
When I talk about freedoms, I mean Canada too, just so you know. I know we're free to breathe and all that, and yes, I can get in my car and drive all over the place, but so what? I'm still 'owned' by someone until I die. From what I wear to what I do, everything is dictacted. Even the word freedom is a dictacted scenerio, so maybe freedom is just a state of mind.
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Linda_K
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posted on March 23, 2004 12:52:49 PM new
KD - July huh? We may soon be joining that month if we too put in all the spending plans kerry has in mind.
----
so maybe freedom is just a state of mind.
I think anyone to truly believes that only needs to go live in a country where they don't have those freedoms. Then it would be easy to appreciate what they do have/enjoy here, instead of complaining about what they don't have.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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Linda_K
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posted on March 23, 2004 01:47:47 PM new
Owning a home is not a freedom....nor was it a promise to the people when this great country was formed.
Owning a home may fall under the 'pursuit of happiness' clause, but it's not a 'freedom' nor a 'right'. It's a pursuit that all can obtain if they wish to work hard for it. Imo, it's not one of those things on this long list of 'wants' many think our government should provide.
bbl
Re-elect President Bush!!
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Libra63
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posted on March 23, 2004 02:34:57 PM new
KD I am not missing the point. I asked GRAVID questions, not you, as to how we are going to educate OUR children if there are no taxes imposed on city or county property. How are we going to get our streets plowed out in a snow storm, how do we get the garbage from our front lawn to a landfill miles away. This is one reason we pay taxes. Streets need repair where do we got the money for that. Of course we all wish we could have NO taxes but it is not in the books. I think the slogan is "Leave No Child Behind". We were told many years ago to start saving as SS isn't going to take care of us in our old age and I agree. SS when started was a sure fire thing until the world went crazy. Maybe we should talk about salaries. Employees that stripe cars get over $20.00 an hour for a USA car maker.
Freedom to say what we want in the Round Table Forum, but NOT in the eBay Outlook.
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