posted on June 13, 2004 08:45:10 AM new
Reason #942 that Bush should be defeated this Fall.
June 13, 2004
Bush Asked for Vatican's Help on Political Issues, Report Says
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
n his recent trip to Rome, President Bush asked a top Vatican official to push American bishops to speak out more about political issues, including same-sex marriage, according to a report in the National Catholic Reporter, an independent newspaper.
In a column posted Friday evening on the paper's Web site, John L. Allen Jr., its correspondent in Rome and the dean of Vatican journalists, wrote that Mr. Bush had made the request in a June 4 meeting with Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state. Citing an unnamed Vatican official, Mr. Allen wrote: "Bush said, 'Not all the American bishops are with me' on the cultural issues. The implication was that he hoped the Vatican would nudge them toward more explicit activism."
Mr. Allen wrote that others in the meeting confirmed that the president had pledged aggressive efforts "on the cultural front, especially the battle against gay marriage, and asked for the Vatican's help in encouraging the U.S. bishops to be more outspoken." Cardinal Sodano did not respond, Mr. Allen reported, citing the same unnamed people.
A spokesman for the Vatican declined yesterday to disclose the contents of the meeting, which followed the president's brief meeting with the pope. Jeanie Mamo, a spokeswoman for the White House, said: "They had a good, private discussion. They discussed a number of priorities of shared concern, and the president's and the Vatican's positions on these issues are well known."
The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, called the report "mind-boggling."
"It is just unprecedented for a president to ask for help from the Vatican to get re-elected, and that is exactly what this is," Mr. Lynn said. Linda Pieczynski, a spokeswoman for Call to Action, a liberal Catholic group, said, "For a president to try to get the leader of any religious organization to manipulate his fellow clergymen to support a political candidate crosses the line in this country."
But some with experience in Roman Catholic politics said they were hardly shocked. "Any head of state who goes to the Vatican will attempt to present a case," said Msgr. Lorenzo Albacete, a professor of theology at St. Joseph's Seminary in New York. Monsignor Albacete, who has served as a translator for Catholic officials in meetings with heads of state, said: "If it is done in a very rude way, then the Vatican will remember and you won't get invited again. But if it is done in a diplomatic way, that is why they go to the Vatican anyway. It is not an act of devotion. It is a political thing."
Mr. Bush's campaign is betting heavily on churchgoers in his re-election effort, and how Catholic voters apply their faith to politics is emerging as a focal point of the race. There are an estimated 63 million Catholics in the United States. Bush campaign pollsters have said that in the last election, people who attended church regularly voted disproportionately for Mr. Bush, though Catholics were much more evenly split than Protestants were.
Once a reliably Democratic constituency, Catholics have become divided, with traditionalist Catholics making common cause with conservative evangelical Protestants on social issues like opposition to same-sex marriage and abortion. But Mr. Bush is also a born-again Methodist who is likely to face a Roman Catholic opponent, Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts. And the pope and other Catholic officials have repeatedly criticized the Bush administration over the war in Iraq.
In the last six months, a handful of Catholic bishops in the United States have already weighed in on the presidential race by threatening to withhold communion from Catholic politicians who disagree with the church's stance on abortion, a group that includes Senator Kerry.
Other bishops, however, have said that threatening to withhold communion goes too far, and the pope has warned of "the formation of factions within the church" in the United States. The bishops are expected to take up the matter at a closed-door conference this week in Colorado.
Pope John Paul II praised Mr. Bush last week for "the promotion of moral values" but reminded the president of the pope's "unequivocal position" on Iraq.
posted on June 13, 2004 01:02:36 PM new
Unreal! Soldiers are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. is almost in debt to the tune of $500 billion (that's half a trillion), people are losing their jobs left & right, and his big concern is about abortion and same-sex marriages????? Yeah, vote for him - this guy's sharp.
posted on June 13, 2004 02:41:49 PM new
SO? Every head of state that has met with the Pope has asked him for support pn some issue.
An exerpt from the "report"
But some with experience in Roman Catholic politics said they were hardly shocked. "Any head of state who goes to the Vatican will attempt to present a case," said Msgr. Lorenzo Albacete, a professor of theology at St. Joseph's Seminary in New York. Monsignor Albacete, who has served as a translator for Catholic officials in meetings with heads of state, said: "If it is done in a very rude way, then the Vatican will remember and you won't get invited again. But if it is done in a diplomatic way, that is why they go to the Vatican anyway. It is not an act of devotion. It is a political thing."
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During his visit to the United States the Pope met with President Clinton. Instead of just an hour as scheduled, the meeting went on for two days. Finally, a weary President Clinton emerged to face the waiting news media.
The President was smiling and announced the summit was a resounding success. He said he and the Pope agreed on 80% of the matters they discussed. Then Mr. Clinton declared he was going home to the White House to be with his family.
A few minutes later the Pope came out to make his statement. He looked tired, discouraged, and was practically in tears. Sadly he announced his meeting with the President was a failure.
Incredulous, one reporter asked, "But your Holiness, President Clinton just announced the summit was a great success and the two of you agreed on 80% of the items discussed".
Exasperated, the Pope answered, "Yes, but we were discussing the Ten Commandments."
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
[ edited by Bear1949 on Jun 13, 2004 02:51 PM ]
posted on June 13, 2004 04:22:04 PM new
Kraft, WHO brought the same sex marriage issue to the front? President Bush is just doing what the majority of Americans want... a stop to the abomination of same sex marriages...
Homosexuals must of thought they could of slipped under the radar, but now are finding out they are an issue that the American people are concerned about.
posted on June 13, 2004 06:13:51 PM new
I understand that Twelve, but nobody can come up with a good reason why gays shouldn't be married, only that they've interpreted or heard that God doesn't approve, or they assume they're second-class citizens because of some stereotypical lifestyle they think they lead, which includes illegal activities. Sure, it's OK to question things, but when your mind goes so far and starts thinking gay marriages will make people want to marry their dogs, then you're dealing with people without a full deck to begin with. These are the people Bush wants votes from because they blindly believe anything and are so easily swayed - especially if you bring God into the picture.
posted on June 13, 2004 06:42:12 PM new
It is horrible that Bush would ask a foreign head of state and religious leader to intervene in domestic political issues. It borders on treason.
posted on June 13, 2004 07:04:59 PM new
And what's the difference between someone wanting to marry their dog, as for wanting to marry someone of the same sex?
After all it was you who has said time and again it has nothing to do with the sex....
I think in the long run, each state will be allowed to do what they feel is best for them, and the Supreme Court will not overturn any state laws either for or against same sex marriages...
As far as asking for the vaticans help... this is nothing new...
It is horrible that Bush would ask a foreign head of state and religious leader to intervene in domestic political issues. It borders on treason.
I agree. Especially one who can't control his own bodily functions. And very likely one that can't recognize himself in the mirror. Especially one who is not elected but appointed for as long as he breathes. Especially one who is the head of the smallest country in the world, that has NEVER has a female authority figure.
Twelve,
And what's the difference between someone wanting to marry their dog, as for wanting to marry someone of the same sex?
I really don't like saying it, but I have to. Your comments are getting more stupid all the time. You really think that a person would want to marry their dog? If there were people like that, they would already be in the spotlight.
Also, you apparently don't understand that marriage is a CONTRACT BETWEEN TWO CONSENTING ADULTS. They both must be in agreement to marry. Since a dog is not a human adult, and has no ability to consent to anything, there is no way a person would be able to marry a dog. So again, your argument is really nonsense. I still think that you know that your reasoning is so faulted that you have to make something up to have any input at all.
FOR SOME, LIFE IS SO MISERABLE...
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on June 13, 2004 07:59:21 PM new
Especially one who is not elected but appointed for as long as he breathes. Especially one who is the head of the smallest country in the world, that has NEVER has a female authority figure.
YES he is, he's 'elected' (sort of) by a body of Cardinals, they probably have the next one 'elected' already.
Yep it may be the smallest country in the world, and NO women can't be Priests, but its the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, whaddya want?
posted on June 13, 2004 08:21:01 PM new
What I do know for fact yeager is that you have yet to prove in any concrete way that homosexual marriage has helped society...
Yet you ignore the schism it has caused along all lines... that sir is a FACT...
You fail to understand that the homosexual lifestyle is WRONG... and therefore is not any better than the person wanting to marry a dog or a tree...
posted on June 13, 2004 08:26:30 PM new
That was my point. Bush is seeking advice from a leader of another country in running OUR country. From the leader of a church founded country where women are treated as second class citizens. And especially one that is the same in it's thinking that was 2000 years ago.
It's a well know fact that the pope has Parkinson's disease. Why would Bush visit a leader that has a lessened degree of mental capacity? What political advice would he get from the pope that he couldn't get from his own adviser's. The answer is NONE! What religious advice could Bush get from the pope that he couldn't get from his own pastor, priest or what have you? The answer is NONE.
The ONLY reason Bush went to see the pope is to court the right wing consecrative bible thumping vote.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on June 13, 2004 09:54:29 PM new
LOL helen.....no, just 'Catholics Against Kerry'....as the website says. There are approx. 65M Catholic's in American....been estimated to be approx. 27% of voters. Their vote is important....that's why kerry's wooing them.
----------------
May 6, 2004
Kerry wooing Catholics
Campaign has eye on bishops June meeting in Colo.
By Alexander Bolton
In an effort to defend his political appeal among Catholics, Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) is to meet today with Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles, who has strong ties to the Latino community.
Pedro sa da bandiera
Catholics have criticized Sen. John Kerry for his support of abortion rights.
The meeting follows another Kerry held last month with Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, who is leading a bishops committee studying the possible sanctions against politicians who defend abortion rights.
Some Catholics say Mahony is one of most liberal of America's 14 cardinals.
Kerry's campaign has met with dozens of Catholic theologians, lay people and church leaders in recent weeks to familiarize them with what they say is Kerry?s strong faith. The campaign wants to learn how to defend Kerry against conservative attacks and appeal to Catholic voters better.
Kerry's campaign added new staff last month to focus on constituent relations with religious leaders and members of the religious community.
Their importance has been heightened by recent controversy over whether Kerry, a practicing Catholic with a strong pro-abortion-rights voting record in the Senate, should be allowed to receive Communion.
The Catholic Church regards abortion as a grave sin, and at least three American bishops, including Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston, have said politicians who defend abortion rights should not receive communion.
Kerry's staff wants Catholics to know he has a strong record fighting for issues that the church has highlighted as important civic causes. But the staff is also acutely aware of a meeting of upwards of 250 American Catholic bishops and several cardinals scheduled for June in Colorado. The question of whether Kerry should take Communion is likely to be discussed, say sources familiar with Catholic affairs.
A former ambassador to the Vatican said whether a politician who supports abortion rights may receive communion is a top concern of the pope. The concern was likely mentioned to representatives of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops at a meeting last week. At next month's bishops retreat, an advocate such as Mahony could be valuable for Kerry.
Catholic leaders, such as Father Robert Drinan, a Jesuit priest and former Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, who now teaches law at Georgetown University, say Kerry should sell the extensive parts of his legislative record that follow the teachings of the church.
Kerry is a very good Catholic, said Drinan, who said the candidate is strong on many important Catholic issues. Drinan, who has counseled Kerry's campaign, said the senator fought for refugees and immigrants, and he should make that known.
Drinan said Kerry should talk to groups in the church that sponsor social welfare programs. Lots of Catholic leaders and Catholic followers say that we believe in his priorities rather than Bush's priorities.
According to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Catholics should work for the poor and vulnerable, work for the rights of workers, work for good stewardship of the earth, desire to avoid war and strive to achieve global solidarity.
Kerry has a strong record on those issues, his supporters say. In the Senate, he has consistently supported federal programs benefiting poor Americans, programs that many Republicans oppose for making the federal government bigger. Kerry has also consistently supported raising the minimum wage and siding with organized labor on worker-rights issues, often opposed by Republicans.
Ray Flynn, a Catholic activist who served as mayor of Boston from 1983 to 1993 and as U.S. ambassador to the Vatican from 1993 to 1997, said neither party is perfectly suited to Catholic teachings.
We're pro-life, pro-family, pro-poor and pro-human rights, said Flynn, referring to American Catholics. What party is that? Is it the Democratic Party? No. Is it the Republican Party??
Flynn, who has known Pope John Paul II since 1969, said he would be shocked if the issue had not been discussed at a meeting that the pontiff held last week with representatives of the U.S. bishops' conference.
Sister Joan Chittister, a columnist for the National Catholic Reporter, said questions about Kerry's Catholicism are so far off the mark.
The question is what is the role of any politician in a pluralistic society, when it's not a theocratic state, when you're not the Taliban, she said. I can't think of any time when a politician tried to introduce legislation to impose Catholic views on the country. You must make space for the consciences of all.
Chittister said Kerry's campaign called her yesterday morning and asked her for an unpublished op-ed she had written defending Catholic politicians who refrain from imposing their religious views on the electorate.
Chittister said Kerry's staff wanted to see her argumentation.
--------------
The kerry campaign is asking for help from a Catholic nun????? And meeting with Catholic leaders -
posted on June 14, 2004 06:21:23 AM new
You should try "wooing" somebody, Linda. That could possibly be a good diversion while relieving your stress and hysteria, evidenced by inappropriate laughter, happy faces which really aren't happy, bitter words etc.-- while you make an ever vigilant effort to bury Bush failure.
Have some fun! Maybe take a trip around the world!!!
Please don't laugh loudly at my suggestion because it's really meant sincerely.
posted on June 14, 2004 11:15:08 AM new"The Catholic Vote" is a myth. Always has been.
And you use a *poll* from 4 years ago.
More up-to-date *polls* have some showing kerry with only 6% of the Catholic vote right now. That's why he's wooing them....he's concerned. Look at the addition funding he's spending in that direction.
Kerry's positions on the culture issues like abortion, stem cell research, uthenasia, etc. are hurting him with Catholics. Issues JFK didn't have during his run for the Presidency.
Anyone who checks the facts will see John F. Kennedy received approx. 78-79% of the Catholic votes. In 2000 Gore/Bush they were more evenly distributed 50% to Gore if memory serves me.
posted on June 14, 2004 02:01:15 PM new
Linda_K is once again zooming in on religious issues. Her republican party is very good at pushing issues that only try to divide and conquer the people to win votes. These republican schemes are now becoming transparent and not working very well. Look at the latest polls below and you will see what I am saying about republicans schemes not working.
Poll Date John Kerry George Bush
Fox News June 9, KERRY 45%, BUSH 43%
LA Times June 9, KERRY 51% BUSH 44%
Gallup June 8, KERRY 50% BUSH 44%
Zogby June 7, KERRY 44% BUSH 42%
ARG June 3 KERRY 48% BUSH 46%
VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY AND OUTSOURCE THE GEO BUSH GOVERNMENT.
[ edited by BIGPEEPA on Jun 14, 2004 02:03 PM ]
[ edited by BIGPEEPA on Jun 14, 2004 02:08 PM ]
[ edited by BIGPEEPA on Jun 14, 2004 03:23 PM ]
posted on June 14, 2004 03:47:25 PM new
bigpeepa said: Linda_K is once again zooming in on religious issues. Her republican party is very good at pushing issues that only try to divide and conquer the people to win votes.
Linda_K is? How by addressing the thread's topic - showing kerry has done/is courting/wooing the Catholic votes also? funny
I guess you missed what the thread topic was all about, who started the thread and what it's intent was meant to do....possibly the same thing you accuse me of doing.
I just showed how it works the same way with kerry. I pointed out some facts about kerry wanting the Catholic vote too and what HIS campaign is currently doing to try and convince Catholic voters to choose him for President.
But of course, in your contining fairness when accusing one person of doing something, you convienently overlook placing any blame on those who do the same thing because they support your positions. How VERY convenient for you. And how very, very telling.
posted on June 14, 2004 08:47:49 PM new
Linda_K, I point out the Bush government lines, lies and schemes. I also point out the people that act like parrots and repeat them. These lines, lies and schemes are designed to mislead American voters. Its the very old divide and conquer routine that has become transparent. If Kerry wins and acts the way Bush has I will work just as hard to get rid of Kerry 4 1/2 years from now. I work everyday FOR A BETTER AMERICA. I work to rid America of the current FAILED LEADERS and if you don't like it TOUGH.
VOTE FOR A BETTER AMERICA. VOTE TO OUTSOURCE THE BUSH GOVERNMENT.
