It appears as if Paul Johnson, the American kidnapped in Saudi Arabia, has met the same fate as Nick Berg.
How many of these will it take before Bush ends this travesty he started?
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 18, 2004 11:29:53 AM new
Bush sure stirred up a hornets nest over there. Its time to bring the American workers home before more of this happens.
posted on June 18, 2004 11:47:39 AM new
logansdad, why do you think this should end the war? Almost the whole world including Bushy Jr.'s DAD, said invading Iraq would be like an explosion, they SAID all this crap would happen. Now, it should end over ONE life????
No, this won't end the war. And it shouldn't.....America knew going in that according to our administration there would be "collateral damage" and they waved their flags and beat their chests and grunted, "Bring it on!" and THIS is what they wanted!
They asked for it ....they got it! If they got what they wanted why quit?
And, why do we see pictures of the latest beheading but aren't ALLOWED(in this "freedom" loving country) to see the soldiers coffins coming back to America?
Yes, Logan, it's sad and pathetic but don't count on it ending for a long, long, flag-draped, time.
posted on June 18, 2004 11:58:28 AM new
I couldn't get you link to work Logan, so If I'm off topic, forgive me, but why is the U.S. helping S. Arabia fight their terrorists when the 9/11 hijackers came from S. Arabia? Besides the obvious oil link, does anyone know?
posted on June 18, 2004 12:13:26 PM new
Crowfar: why do you think this should end the war?
IMO, Bush lied to get the country into the war to begin with. Second, I do not believe Sadaam was a threat to us. The real threat was and still is Bin Laden. Bush should be doing more to capture Bin Laden since he was the one that caused the 9/11 attacks not Sadaam. Third, the war in Iraq has done more harm for America than it has done good. Not only has it ruined our integrity as a Nation, it has increased the amount of hatred toward America. Do you feel safer now than you did before 9/11? I would answer no. This war has increased the number of radical groups that want to harm the US. It will be only a matter of time before another 9/11 event occurs.
While this death (nor the previous 900 deaths) will not bring an end to the war. How many more of these types of deaths will it take before the war ends? What happens if it is American soldiers that are captured and beheaded? I don't think the American public will stand for this.
And, why do we see pictures of the latest beheading but aren't ALLOWED(in this "freedom" loving country) to see the soldiers coffins coming back to America?
Good question, I guess Bush thinks a soldier's death is more sacred.
Yes, Logan, it's sad and pathetic but don't count on it ending for a long, long, flag-draped, time.
Hopefully Bush will get what he deserves in November.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 18, 2004 12:34:35 PM new
Don't mis-read me,Logan, I'm 100% on your side except for one thing...Bush does not forbid the showing of the coffins out of respect for the soldiers...he doesn't want the American public to remember the price they're paying for his war. We see the beheadings because they're not in the US and, hence, can't be CONTROLLED!
Oh, and I do argue that dead is dead whether you're blown to bits, beat to death in a prison or beheaded...will the American public stand for this? Well, they are!
posted on June 18, 2004 12:59:10 PM new
Everyone here knows that I've been against this war from the beginning. However, I think it's too late to just pull out unless the Iraqi people tell us to leave. We've certainly stirred up a hornet's nest, as logansdad points out. bin Laden's group is now operating in that country. If we just walk away now, we've handed bin Laden a country in which to operate - a much richer one than Afghanistan. Our concentrations should have been solely on bin Laden and not on Hussein, but it's too late to change that fact now. This is something Bush will have to live with for the rest of his life and even after death, I think there will be higher powers dealing with him over it.
IMO, all civilians should be pulled out of Iraq and all the Arab countries. Although, as far as I'm concerned Haliburton can just stay there. Civilians, even in the role of re-builders, have no business being placed in the middle of a war - no, Bush, the war is NOT over like you'd have us believe.
posted on June 18, 2004 04:11:29 PM new
Kraft said," couldn't get you link to work Logan, so If I'm off topic, forgive me, but why is the U.S. helping S. Arabia fight their terrorists when the 9/11 hijackers came from S. Arabia? Besides the obvious oil link, does anyone know? "
Kraft, the senior Bushs are close personal friends of the king and his family.
So Junior couldn't go after Saudi Arabia or it would've been rather awkward at dinner parties....and taking the Saudi's oil ain't that easy........so he got the public to believe it was Iraq who was responsible.
posted on June 18, 2004 04:32:04 PM new
Yes, another tragic death. Should let everyone here see the actions of our enemies. They'd do this to us all...given the chance.
THAT's why this President declared war on them. That's why we won't be leaving anytime soon....and that's why KERRY won't withdraw our troops either. They're not in denial.
posted on June 18, 2004 07:13:24 PM new
Krafty - mind if I help with your Saudi delemna?
It's very easy to believe that the Saudi people and their government is evil. Afterall that is something that has been fed to us liberals for quite awhile because Bush and family are friends with the royals. What they have ignored though is that the Saudis have been friends of ours for decades. Our corps of engineers helped them develop their nation, we sold them their defense systems and were training their military 30 years ago.
It's also very easy to point the finger at the nationality of the hijackers and think that they indicate an evil nation. But then you have to remember that Bin Laden is not a stupid man, in fact he is as skilled with pyschological warfar as anything else. BinLaden hates the Americans, and more than anything else he resents their presence in the Kingdom. Part of the reason he was stripped of his citizenship was because of his plotting against Americans in Saudi Arabia. He has sworn the destruction of the royal family specifically because of their alliances with the US.
It was not an accident that of the hundreds of men that Bin Laden had at his disposal for the 9/11 mission, the ones he chose were Saudis. It is part of the psychological warfare. Hoping that once their identities became known it would drive a wedge between our nations. Guess what - it 's working.
Why are we helping the Saudis? Because we have the same enemy. Because to withdraw and run away and leave their nation to the mercy of Al Queda wuld be handing Bin Laden a victory on a silver platter.
I don't think people understand just how wildly unpopular the Saudis are in the Arab world. In a largly ignored story in the past few months it has been revealed that Libya's Quadfi (sp) has been up to old tricks again. He tried to pay to have the crowned price killed - our FBI and the Saudi government have the perpetrators on that one in custody now.
The Saudi royals are trying to find a way to bridge the traditional beliefs of their people and their region with a modern world society and economy. Isn't that something that we want? American friendly leaders in the Middle East are few and far between so when you have one, especially when you have one that, whether the other nations like them or not, they listen too, it is in our best interest help them in any way that we can.
Of course the bigger problem is those that are equating this inn any way with our war with Iraq. The terrorists that attacked in Saudi are Al Queda and they do not have a damn thing to do with Iraq. This should no more encourage us too stay in Iraq Losing a sock in the dryer should inspire you to not use the diswasher anymore. They simply have nothing to do with each other besides both taking place in the middle east.
Blair - our Statem department pretty much has called everyone home but since the Americans that are still in the Kingdonm are private citizens they cannot force them to leave. Many are choosing to stay, and others to start working there, because of escalated hazard wages they are being paid.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 18, 2004 07:14 PM ]
posted on June 18, 2004 07:55:22 PM new
Fenix, you wash your socks in the dishwasher?????
lol>>>
Very informative post. The only thing that scares me is that although what you said about the Saudies is true, most progressive, friends of US, etc. There is a bond among arabs thoughout the region, and - and yes i know they've been warring among themselves for years, but it looks like ever more rational or irratational - its a lot easier to turn that against a free-wheeling country or the entire western world should they feel threatened. I have to wonder if its all just Al Queda? To me, its almost like the US busted into Iraq and said, ok you guys are gonna be a free nation whether you like it or not (we've got our implanted our interests there now) -- So isnt the rest of the Oil-rich Arab countries (including Saudi) watching this and thinking....are we next to be overrun and forced into the next generation we may not want by the Americans? I dont know, but I'd think its gotta be threatenting for all of them especially given their religious sanctity.
posted on June 18, 2004 08:09:03 PM new
Nero - no, Saudis are not afraid of the US invading them. There is a very friendly relationship between us. We share a great deal of intelligence and the Saudis know that in many cases they are our voice in negotiations among arab nations.
They are not nearly as paranoid a nation as we have shown ourselves to be in recent years. They operate from a position of power as the largeast and richest of the arab nations and the one with the most long standing relationship with our country. For the US to invade Saudi Arabia would be a suicide mission. It would be unadulterated proof to all, no matter what their former beliefs that America is absolutely not to be trusted. An invasion of Saudi Arabia would not bring a few groups of insurgents upon us as in Iraq but rather the entire penisula would rise up together to fight us for if we were willing to invade our greeatest ally, how are they ever to be safe. The Saudis know this. But more importantly - they know there is absolutely no rational that would allow for a US invasion of their Kingdom and more importantly, no logical reason to do it. We would lose a very important ear in the arab sands.
Oh yeah - and you forget - Saddam was the most hated and disresppected leader in the pennisula. Muslims may not like our methods, but they are hardley mourning the loss. We are not the only ones that considered him to be a psychotic madman. The only time he was ever a good muslim was when it was time for a press conference and all people knew it.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 18, 2004 08:18 PM ]
posted on June 18, 2004 08:13:56 PM new
OK you two - you are totally missing my witty analogy of one thing illogically affecting another .... keep this up and I will be forced to deny you my pithy repartee in the future
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on June 18, 2004 08:26:31 PM new
Well...I don't know about neroter but I certainly couldn't dream of being without your pithy repartee in the future.
posted on June 18, 2004 08:31:20 PM new
I knew someone on these boards would be waving the white flag...
Glad to know that President Bush and many others don't share such cowardly acts...
We need to step up the heat and use some real force now... One good thing is the Saudis don't have our need to be "nice" when a killing needs done they do and move on...
posted on June 18, 2004 08:33:44 PM new
lol fenix. (Nice to see you back in humor)
oh well, I'm going to bed. Got nuthing done on here tonight except some researching. Maybe IT is the god-forsaken heat or just the weekend lapse off. (I know I spent way too much at estate and garage sales last week...I am beginning to think I am just keeping THEM in business...lol..)
Anyway, I hope you are right about the Saudi's. All this beheading people is getting too much for me to bear.
posted on June 20, 2004 03:19:08 PM new
Just heard on the news... Saudis helped with the kidnapping. Will be interesting to see how our "friends" get out of this one.
posted on June 21, 2004 06:38:08 AM new
Crow, it will be interested to see how Bush now sticks up and defends the Saudi's. I bet he will just say it was some radical activists in Saudi and does not represnt the views of the rest of the country.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 28, 2004 06:45:03 AM new
Hopefully the captured marine will be treated as a POW and not meet the same fate as the other two American contractors.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
