posted on June 29, 2004 11:33:14 PM new
The latest Christian-bashing thread got me thinking. What if Christians never bothered to proselytize? What would the world be like if the early Christians just minded their own business?
The answer is that most, if not all, of the world would be Islamic. There certainly wouldn't be a United States or freedom or democracy or equality. The whole world would be ruled by the taliban.
Christian Europe was the only thing keeping Muslims from taking over Europe and the rest of the world and forcibly converting everyone to Islam. Our tolerant and freedom-loving civilization was based on Christian-Judeo beliefs and values. Not Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, or pagan beliefs.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
posted on June 30, 2004 12:15:56 AM new
::The whole world would be ruled by the taliban. ::
What path of logic did you use to get to this noclusion? The Taliban does not currently rule the Islamic world so how did you suddenly put them into hypothetical control of the entire world?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on June 30, 2004 12:40:51 AM new
The number of Americans who identify themselves as Christians, as of 2001, is 76.5% although we can easily see those percentages are not reflected on these boards - for sure.
Worldwide: Christians are the largest religious group at 33% of the worlds population. Muslims are next at 22%.
Because of some of what was said on the thread you mention I was curious to see how many, if any, Christians were in the Arab countries - this was the result:
Arab Christians:
Today there are 14 Million Christians in the Arab world descendants of those who did not convert to nor embrace Islam.
Distribution of the Arab Christian Populations
Most of the Arab Christians who live in the Middle East are located in the following countries:
Lebanon (35-45 % of the population)
Palestine (5-10 %)
Jordan (6-12 %)
Syria (10 %)
Sudan (10 %)
Egypt (6-12 %)
Iraq (3 %).
In total about 5-6 % of the Arab countries population are Christians. It is important to note that Arabs are not all Muslims and Muslims are not all Arabs.
Some Christians who live in the Arab world refuse to be considered as "Arabs". They take pride in their heritage and trace their roots to their ancestors who inhabited the land before the appearance of Islam.
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posted on June 30, 2004 01:18:04 AM new
Linda - it is very true that not all arabs follow Islam. I have spoken before about the catholics that I know that have immigrated here from Iraq. There are also Jews. The Arab peninsula i s predominantly Islamic but as in any commmunity there are those who have sought and found relief in other beliefs.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on June 30, 2004 04:18:16 AM new
Just because someone doesn't believe that Christianity should be shoved down someone's throad does not make them anti-Christian. You right wingers are very good at throwing the word "anti" and "un" around. If you disagree with the president, you are anti-American. If you disagree with shoving Christianity in someone's face, you are anti-Christian. Well, liberals can throw the anti word around just as well.
You don't think we should help the poor - you are anti-humane. You don't think we should raise the minimum wage so people have a more equal footing - you are anti-equality. You don't think we were wrong to blow up a country based on a bunch of lies - you are anti-truth. You think Bush is an intelligent and logical thinker - you are anti-intelligence. I'll stop there. However, I could go on.
posted on June 30, 2004 06:29:36 AM new
LOL and yet when other things are shoved down people's throats, that is quite alright with the left... very amusing...
posted on June 30, 2004 08:04:00 AM new Christian Europe was the only thing keeping Muslims from taking over Europe and the rest of the world and forcibly converting everyone to Islam. Our tolerant and freedom-loving civilization was based on Christian-Judeo beliefs and values. Not Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, or pagan beliefs
It's true that in the past there were powerful Muslim armies who conquered vast territory. The Ottoman Empire is the most obvious example. However, this was political control, not religious.
Spain, for example, was controlled by Moors for 800 years, and this was a time of great tolerance and intellectual diversity. Christian, Muslim and Jewish believers shared in the flowering of a culture never before seen in Europe. At the same time, London was a dank village where everyone threw their garbage and chamber pots into the open trenches in the middle of the streets. Books and paper were unheard of. Nobody read or wrote anything. Everyone was christian.
Intolerance came to Spain with the reconquest. Catholics expelled everyone who wasn't Catholic. Muslims, Jews, Gnostics, you name it. Persecution and torture in the name of Jesus was the order of the day.
The idea that only Christianity has prevented the world from being Muslim just doesn't hold water.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey
posted on June 30, 2004 09:34:08 AM newThe number of Americans who identify themselves as Christians, as of 2001, is 76.5% although we can easily see those percentages are not reflected on these boards - for sure.
Yes and if pressed and questioned on the basic tenents of christianity most prove not to be christians at all.
Ask all the catholics how many think the Pope infallible and about birth control and you'll see what I mean.
Ask all these who identify themselves as christians if they believe in the immaculate conception, literal truth of the bible, truth of miracles, ect..
Before you're through with your poll, you'll see that the position of "christian identity" is meaningless.
posted on June 30, 2004 11:27:05 AM new
SELF-identified reamond.
Not how YOU, as a atheist, see them and their religious beliefs/practices.
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cheryl - There you go again...why don't you just copy and paste your 'shove it down their throats' post because you say it over and over and over again. EVEN when it's not the LEAST bit applicable...as in wasn't in the other thread. NO one was forcing ANYTHING down your throat. We were having a discussion. NO Bible quotes at all. No telling you how you SHOULD be living your life. Rather...you telling OTHERS what they should and shouldn't be doing - you know...like you so object to others doing when the issue is something YOU agree with. Get a grip girl....it's a chat board discussion.
posted on June 30, 2004 11:38:38 AM new
fenix - I missed your post earlier this morning. The discussion on the other thread and what that business was doing made me question - knowing Christ was born in that part of the world - just how many Christians were still there. After a little reading I saw...not many. They have been forced out pretty much and Islam has grown stronger. But it was good, for me, to see that there are some Arab countries that still allow their citizens to practice different religions. More open than other Arab countries....like all those not listed.
That's all.
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parklane - Not sure who your post was directed to....but for me, all I ask for is the right for all to be allowed to continue practicing their religion of choice/or choice not to practice in OUR country. And to stop the actions of those like the ACLU and their supporters who are, imo, trying to take that away from people of faith.
posted on June 30, 2004 12:01:47 PM new
Are you aware that there is a Christian population in Iraq? They've been there for hundreds of years. They suffered no discrimination, and some had positions in Hussein's government. They didn't fear the Muslim majority at all until our invasion, when they feared there might be a backlash, which never did occur.
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We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 30, 2004 12:54:05 PM newAre you aware that there is a Christian population in Iraq?
I read what I posted above.
They've been there for hundreds of years. They suffered no discrimination, and some had positions in Hussein's government.
No discrimination? LOL okay...if you think Iraq was a free country under saddam...and all were free to do anything they wanted to....you're certainly entitled to that opinion.
From what I was reading last night...their numbers have been decreasing for decades not just since 2003.
They didn't fear the Muslim majority at all until our invasion, when they feared there might be a backlash, which never did occur.
I know - everythings always OUR fault. Even giving the Iraqi people a chance to enjoy true freedom....a chance to form their own government is just so terrible. I can't imagine anything worse.
posted on June 30, 2004 02:24:38 PM newIt's true that in the past there were powerful Muslim armies who conquered vast territory. The Ottoman Empire is the most obvious example. However, this was political control, not religious.
Everyone in Islamic lands were/are subject to oppressive Islamic law.
If there were no Christians to oppose the Muslims, they would have taken over most or all of the world. Whether you are religious or not, I don't think anyone can deny that Christianity has made the world a much better place.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
posted on June 30, 2004 06:56:32 PM new
Opposing the muslims had nothing to do with being christian, just as opposing the Huns had nothing to do with being christian. A truely ridiculous assertion. The muslims were invaders, their religion made no difference. In fact Europe traded with them for centuries.
posted on June 30, 2004 09:02:45 PM newIf there were no Christians to oppose the Muslims, they would have taken over most or all of the world. Whether you are religious or not, I don't think anyone can deny that Christianity has made the world a much better place
Obviously, you only read the first sentence of my post. I can deny it, and do, readily. I don't assert that Christians are any worse than any other religions that force their beliefs on the unwilling, they are just no better. It's a wash. As I said in my example, although the subjects in Moorish Spain were under Islamic law, they were free to practice their chosen faith, and the arts and sciences flourished. My Jewish ancestors lived the good life, and owned large tracts of land. With the reconquista, all that went by the wayside in the name of Christ. We first became nominal Catholics to save our necks, and eventually we fled to this continent to escape the tyrrany of the followers of Jesus, many of whom did not accept new converts to christianity .... Fact. Like it or not.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey
