posted on July 2, 2004 06:49:24 PM new
Last night I heard 41% of the Iraqi people wished to see Saddam back in power. Can you believe it? How brainwashed can you get? Although the rest are calling for his death, some think he should get life in prison for obvious reasons. What do you think should happen to him?
posted on July 2, 2004 06:54:52 PM new
I think they should call a town meeting first thng in the morning. Once 1000 people have shown up, you publicly release Saddam on the front steps of the courthouse.
See what happens.
I can picture the eBay listings now...
"LQQK! Saddams Left Eye no reserve!"
--------------------------------------
We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
"It is also not clear that Saddam's trial would actually cast Bush in a positive light. Saddam can after all accurately report that Donald Rumsfeld came to him in 1984 with a letter from George Schultz saying that the US did not really mean it when it criticized Iraq for using chemical weapons against Iranian troops. (The documents have been published by the National Security Archive). Other damaging information may also come out in a trial."
posted on July 2, 2004 09:03:25 PM new
I seriously doubt Bush will be 'on trial' here.
Too many other things the Iraqi people will want to see him pay for.
-------------
Heard a discussion about this being a new Iraqi judge....against saddam's 20 lawyers...even some French lawyers. [surprise, surprise]
And while some were concerned about how well a young judge would fair in a trial like this, that could take years....others discussed the fact that this trial will be broadcast... and the Iraqi people will get to see how a REAL judicial system works...vs saddam's way of dealing with his own form of 'justice', that they've endured for so many decades, really works.
I think that alone will have plenty of positives.
But I must admit that I got several good chuckles watching saddam make his demands on this young judge...the one presenting his charges to him. He was beside himself that he wasn't in control any longer. I'm sure we'll see more of that in the future. Like 'how DARE you - I'M the President of Iraq'.
-------------------
I agree...dadofstickboy ...comes across to me in the same way.
posted on July 2, 2004 09:06:45 PM new Helen's getting bored with Vendio! She's pushing to be Saddams Campaign manager! She could do it: ( I'd bet she has the citizenship papers it takes) to be his manager. She's surely not an: American!
Are you having problems with delusions and scattered thinking again, dadofstickboy?
posted on July 2, 2004 09:10:17 PM new
dumbdadofstickboy is just another uninformed republican that calls people Non-American because they have a brain and use it. Dumbdadofstickboy, you like to call people Non-American but can't dispute Helen's post. Get informed.
AMERICA NEEDS TO OUTSOURCE THE BUSH GOVERNMENT BEFORE ITS TO LATE.
posted on July 2, 2004 09:16:59 PM new
That's neo-con rule #6:
If you don't have an intelligent answer call the opponent Anti-American....beats the hell out of reasoning!
Oh, good to see you linda after you ran out of the Teresa Kerry thread.
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 2, 2004 09:23 PM ]
posted on July 2, 2004 09:17:56 PM new
Linda_K you said "I seriously doubt Bush will be 'on trial' here.
Too many other things the Iraqi people will want to see him pay for."
Linda_K, you are so right, I agree that the Iraqi people will be looking for Bush to pay out Billions and Billions more of American tax payers dollars before its all over.
posted on July 2, 2004 09:25:15 PM new
bigpeepa - And my hope is that our grandchildren will see in their lifetime, a dramatic change in the Middle East and Bush will be remembered as being the one who brought more stability to that 'hot bed' region of the world. Well worth the cost.
Peace and stability can be expensive, both in lives and currency, but in the long run history will show this was the way to start.
Dadofstickboy said, "Helen's getting bored with Vendio."
Why is this mentioned in the thread, What Will Happen to Saddam? And where does that idea come from Dadofstickboy? I wouldn't start a comment about my imagined evaluation of your state if boredom or excitement with Vendio. Why do you?
Dadofstickboy said, She's pushing to be Saddams Campaign manager!
What on earth is the basis for this statement? My comment in this thread was about the U.S. government pardoning Saddam's chemical warfare on Iran. I hold Saddam in the same contempt as I do George Bush.
Dadofstickboy said, She could do it: ( I'd bet she has the citizenship papers it takes) to be his manager.
Now, you are apparently alleging that I have Iraqi citizenship papers? And that I need such citizenship papers to be his manager? Manager of what? Are you feeling OK, dadofstickboy? This is absolutely nutty.
Dadofsticboy says, She's surely not an American.
Based on what, dadofstickboy. Did linda tell you so? Or was it twelvepole? Or maybe Bear? Why don't you start thinking for yourself with conclusions based on facts. I see nothing in this comment that anybody with a functioning brain would believe. What do you think others are thinking about the statements that you have made here?
Maybe they are admiring your intellectual ability to make ludicrous statements? Is that what you think?
We get called un-American for the very things that make us VERY AMERICAN - our willingness and our right to voice our opinions. Yes, all you conservatives out there, we do get on you for your opinions, but I don't recall calling you un-American for them. I may have called it un-American to call liberals un-American for their viewpoints. Is that un-American enough? But, I'm sure someone will start frantically searching back posts to find one where I called someone un-American. LOL!
posted on July 3, 2004 11:20:01 AM new
Back to original topic. What should happen to Hussein? Whatever the Iraqi people want to have happen to him. It's their country and their dictator. Punsihment or lack thereof should be up to them.
However, despite the fact that we have "handed back control" to the Iraqis (wink, wink), I sincerely doubt that Hussein would be put back in power even if every last one of the them voted for that to happen. The reins of government would be whipped out of their hands sofast a finger or two would go with them.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 3, 2004 05:06:40 PM new
Kraft, that would be wild! then maybe you could say the east vs west to end the end would mostly likely be here! funny thing - and they are putting different numbers out all over the place - but last I saw was about 40% of Iraqi's don't think he should be on trial at all!
Don't think the US will allow him to be beheaded or anything, do any of you? Always wondered why they did not kill Qaddafi sp*, or the other extremists over there when they had them? I'd guess its better to leave the current one around n know what he's up to, than have another one in and start all over again.
Also wondering why the republicans are not all over Saddam's comments? They sound eerily like some of the Democrats. <Bush just doing it for elections, etc., etc.
gawd! how embarassing! liberals and hussin mimicking the same words! lol!>
posted on July 5, 2004 04:58:03 PM new
bigpeepa says:
you like to call people Non-American but can't dispute Helen's post. Get informed.
Helenjw: posted:
Bush wouldn't fair too well under those circumstances either,
My dispute is:
I believe Bush, would fair Very Well!
He's doing a hell of a job, and the people of this country realize it!
Helen posted:
Based on what, dadofstickboy. Did linda tell you so? Or was it twelvepole? Or maybe Bear? Why don't you start thinking for yourself with conclusions based on facts. I see nothing in this comment that anybody with a functioning brain would believe. What do you think others are thinking about the statements that you have made here?
Reply:
Nothing I say here is ever based on what someone else said!
I form my opinions from what is said by the poster!
As far as your: Copy & Past B.S., Stick It!
Helen said:
Why don't you start thinking for yourself with conclusions based on facts.
My reply:
I do think for myself, I know it burns you Butt to think someone has something to say without searching the internet for something to Copy & Paste. And the facts are what You wrote here!
Helen said:
What do you think others are thinking about the statements that you have made here?
Reply:
I think the majority Agree with me!
Just don't want to muddy the waters!
Your name here has been:
Baghdad Helen, for quite a while.
So:
What do YOU think others are thinking about the statements that you have made here?
I don't click on copy & pasted URLs.
I don't read copy & pasted material.
I only concern myself with what is written here,by the poster!
That's the only way to form a personal opinion!
raq and the Election
Poll Shows Bush Losing Ground on Antiterror Policy
Analysis
By Gary Langer
June 21, 2004— Amid rising disenchantment with the war in Iraq, President Bush has lost significant ground on the issue on which he's staked his presidency: fighting terrorism.
For the first time in ABC News/Washington Post polls, more than half of Americans, 52 percent, say the Iraq war was not worth fighting. Seven in 10 call U.S. casualties there "unacceptable," a new high. And there's been a steady slide in belief that the war has enhanced long-term U.S. security; 51 percent now say so, down 11 points this year.
Bush, moreover, has weakened in his once-strongest area. Approval of his handling of the U.S. campaign against terrorism has fallen to 50 percent, its lowest yet — down eight points in the last month and 29 points below its immediate postwar peak. In a hazardous turn of fortune for Bush, Democrat John Kerry now runs evenly with him in trust to handle terrorism; Bush had led by 13 points on this issue a month ago, and by 21 points the month before.
Sampling, data collection and tabulation for this poll were done by TNS.
While Kerry's pressing hard on an issue Bush once owned, the president has not entirely relinquished his advantage on terrorism. On a personal level, the public by a 14-point margin picks him over Kerry to keep the nation safer and more secure. And the Massachusetts senator may be vulnerable on specifics; only four in 10 say he has a "clear plan" on terrorism, while Bush does better.
But Kerry is scoring against Bush elsewhere as well, running ahead in trust to handle five of nine issues tested in this poll, from taxes to education to health care; Bush doesn't lead significantly in any of them. And personally, while Americans broadly see Bush as more consistent, they see Kerry as more honest and trustworthy, by a 13-point margin, and more in touch with their problems, by 20 points.
Evaluating Bush's overall job performance, 47 percent of Americans now approve while 51 percent disapprove, inching over half for the first time in ABC/Post polls. In head-to-head matchups among registered voters, Kerry has a slight four-point lead over Bush when independent candidate Ralph Nader is included, and a larger eight-point lead with Nader out of the contest.
With life-and-death issues such as Iraq and terrorism as a backdrop, and the economy a continued concern, interest in the presidential contest is unusually high. More than three-quarters of Americans are following it closely, a third "very closely." By contrast, at this time in 2000, fewer than half (49 percent) were closely following the contest between Bush and Al Gore, only 13 percent very closely.
Iraq Impact
While time ultimately will tell, at this point it's hard to see Iraq as anything but a net negative politically for the Bush administration. In addition to increasingly negative reaction to the level of casualties, and essentially split decisions on whether the war was worth fighting or improved U.S. security, other assessments have worsened as well.
Seventy-six percent now say the war has damaged the United States' image in the rest of the world; that's 13 points more than last summer. Sixty-three percent say it's caused long-term harm to U.S. relations with countries that opposed the war, up 12 points. And just four in 10 say it's improved long-term stability in the Middle East, down eight points. (In a more positive assessment, 65 percent think the war has improved the lives of the Iraqi people.)
How War With Iraq Impacts U.S. Reputation
War With Iraq Has: Now July '03 Change
Damaged U.S. image 76 percent 63 percent + 13
Caused long-term damage to U.S. relations with France, Germany 64 percent 51 percent + 12
Improved U.S. security 51 percent 62 percent - 11
Contributed to Mideast peace 42 percent 50 percent - 8
Improved Iraqis' lives 65 percent 72 percent - 7
Iraq Handover
Given such views, the public seems eager to put Iraq back into Iraqis' hands. An overwhelming 82 percent approve of the transfer of power to an interim government on June 30 — but many see it as an insufficient exercise. More than half think the United States will continue to hold the real power in Iraq, even though three-quarters would prefer to see real power shift to the Iraqis.
Indeed, the public splits evenly on who should have final say on the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq — the United States or the new Iraqi government. And majorities say the Iraqis should have final say on a variety of other fronts — running Iraq's oil industry, managing its economy, administering its non-U.S. foreign aid and determining what's ultimately done with Saddam Hussein. (For the time being, though, Americans by 2-1 say the United States should keep physical custody of the former Iraqi president.)
There are just two matters, by contrast, in which majorities say the United States should retain final say in Iraq: the activities (as opposed to the presence) of U.S. forces, and the administration of American aid projects.
Who Should Have the Final Say?
Iraq United States
Administering U.S. aid 31percent 64 percent
Activities of U.S. forces 35 percent 61 percent
Presence of U.S. forces 48 percent 49 percent
What happens to Saddam 54 percent 38 percent
Administering non-U.S. aid 63 percent 31 percent
Running Iraq's oil industry 78 percent 20 percent
Managing Iraq's economy 84 percent 14 percent
Others results show mixed perceptions of progress for the Bush administration: With a new interim government now in place and the formal handover imminent, half of Americans say the United States has made "significant progress" toward establishing a democratic government in Iraq. While hardly rousing, that's up by 12 points from last month. The country divides similarly, 51 percent to 48 percent, on U.S. progress toward restoring civil order.
Iraq and Al Qaeda
Most Americans continue to suspect that Iraq, under Saddam, did provide support to the al Qaeda terrorist network — a position under debate since the 9/11 commission last week reported that there was evidence of contacts, but not of an operational relationship, between the two.
It should be noted, though, that the majority's suspicion of an Iraq-al Qaeda link is just that — a suspicion, not an assertion or assumption of fact. In this poll, 62 percent think Iraq provided direct support to al Qaeda, nearly what it was (68 percent) in January 2003, before the war. But just 23 percent say there's "solid evidence" of this support; 38 percent say instead that it's their suspicion only.
As on other "50/50 nation" issues, the public divides about evenly on whether the Bush administration intentionally misled the American public about Iraq-al Qaeda links (48 percent say so) or told the public simply what it believed to be true (50 percent).
Terrorism
The murder Friday of Paul Johnson, an American working in Saudi Arabia, can't have helped public views of the terrorism situation; indeed, Bush's approval rating on terrorism was better in interviews Thursday night, before the slaying, than subsequently. At the same time, Bush's trouble on this central issue has been brewing; he had 70 percent approval on terrorism in mid-December, 64 percent in February and 58 percent in May, en route to his 50 percent now.
It's a problem for Bush because since Sept. 11, 2001, handling the war on terrorism has been his strongest rating by far — the wellspring of his support. In this poll, by contrast, it's no better than his middling ratings in several areas. And he does worse in a variety of others — including health care (57 percent disapprove), the deficit (56 percent disapprove, albeit better than the 65 percent disapproval in March), international affairs and Iraq.
Bush's position is an uncomfortable one in historical terms. In all but one case since 1948, incumbent presidents whose approval ratings were below 50 percent in June or July of an election year either lost (Bush's father, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford) or didn't run (Lyndon Johnson and Harry Truman in 1952). The exception was Truman in 1948.
Still, at 47 percent Bush's approval rating is higher than others' in the group — closest to Ford, who lost narrowly. Bush's father's approval rating in June 1992, by contrast, was 12 points lower.
Bush vs. Kerry
As noted above, Kerry leads Bush in trust to handle a range of specific issues; moreover, Kerry's standing on some of these have improved. He leads Bush by 13 points in trust to handle taxes; it was a six-point Bush lead in April. Kerry leads Bush by 12 points in trust to handle prescription drug benefits, up from three points in April. And Kerry has a 10-point lead on education; it was Bush +3 in April.
The most notable change, again, is in trust to handle terrorism — Bush +21 in April, Bush +13 in May, Kerry +1 (i.e., a dead heat) now, a shift that occurred almost entirely among women, particularly independents. But the change on education, among others, is important as well; neutralizing the Democrats on this issue was crucial to Bush's 2000 campaign.
* +8 needed for significance at 95 percent confidence
Most Important Issue
Americans divide on which issue will be most important in their vote for president: Twenty-six percent say the economy, 19 percent Iraq, 18 percent terrorism, with the rest divided among other choices. There are sharp divisions within these issue groups. People who say Iraq is their most important issue pick Kerry over Bush in trust to handle it by nearly a 2-1 margin, 60 percent to 32 percent. Those who say it's terrorism pick Bush to handle that issue by a similar margin, 67 percent to 31 percent. Among economy voters, Kerry is preferred, by 21 points.
Trust to Handle It
Top Issues Bush Kerry
Terrorism 67 percent 31 percent
Iraq 32 percent 60 percent
Economy 38 percent 59 percent
Economy
The economy is one area in which the headwinds against Bush may be easing. In March, Bush's disapproval for handling it was higher, 59 percent, and Kerry (riding his primary bounce) had a bigger lead in trust to handle it. While just 45 percent now say the economy's in good shape, it was worse, 39 percent, in March, and worse still, 30 percent, last fall.
At the same time, using Ronald Reagan's famous formulation, 45 percent of Americans say most people are worse off than when Bush took office, while just 17 percent say most are better off. This was a bit more negative last fall, but it's still not at all good. To the extent that Bush may try to claim the Reagan mantle, Kerry might well respond with the better-off question that same president enshrined in the political lexicon.
Plans
Fifty-five percent say Bush does have a clear plan for dealing with terrorism, but fewer, ranging from 42 percent to 48 percent, say he has clear plans in other important areas: handling Iraq, the economy and health care.
Majorities see Kerry as having clear plans for two issues on this list — health care and the economy. But just 42 percent say he has a clear plan on either terrorism or Iraq — 13 points worse than Bush on the former, six points on the latter.
Does he have a clear plan?
Yes, Bush Yes, Kerry
Terrorism 55 percent 42 percent
Iraq 48 percent 42 percent
Economy 48 percent 49 percent
Health care 42 percent 60 percent
Attributes
In addition to issues, assessments of candidates' personal attributes are an essential piece of any election puzzle. Here Americans are differentiating between Bush and Kerry in striking ways. Bush has a 21-point lead over Kerry as someone who "takes a position and sticks with it," and, as noted, a 14-point lead as someone who "will make the country safer and more secure."
Bush also leads by eight points as the stronger leader, and by 12 as the one best trusted in a crisis. The two are rated about evenly in values and standing up to special interest groups; while, as noted, Kerry leads by 13 points on honesty and trustworthiness, and by 20 points on empathy — someone who "understands the problems of people like you." As much as the issues, winning allegiance on these attributes is the ground on which the 2004 election will be fought.
Optimism
Part of winning that allegiance relies on the candidates' personal outlook, and the extent to which it jibes with the public's. Despite the country's problems, optimism prevails in several areas.
Thinking about the year ahead, 62 percent are optimistic about "the way things are going in this country" (albeit down seven points from January); 66 percent are optimistic about the country's ability to defend itself against terrorism (albeit down nine points); 64 percent are optimistic about the economy (level). Fewer, 52 percent, are optimistic about the situation in Iraq; it was 58 percent in January.
A challenge for Kerry is in finding a way to confront Bush on these issues, and portray the problems they pose, without sounding a note of dour pessimism that's out of touch with the broader public's point of view. Bush, for his part, has made a point lately of stressing his optimistic outlook, and contrasting it with Kerry's.
Vote Preference
These issues and attributes will play out in vote preferences all summer and fall; what matters more at this point is the substance of the debate, not its eventual outcome — which news polls this far from the event don't even try to project.
Among other factors, vote preferences are influenced by, and in turn influence, political party allegiance. Among registered voters in this poll, 38 percent describe themselves as Democrats, 30 percent as Republicans and 28 percent as independents (it's a 35 percent-29 percent-30 percent split among all Americans, not just those who say they're registered to vote).
Those divisions are almost precisely the same as they were in the last ABC/Post poll, in late May (among registered voters, 37 percent-29 percent-28 percent). In that poll, Bush and Kerry were even in the three-way race (46 percent-46 percent-4 percent, compared with 44 percent-48 percent-6 percent here); and it was 47 percent-49 percent Bush-Kerry in the two-way race, compared with 45 percent-53 percent here.
These slight shifts in preference have occurred, not in the overall partisan makeup of the sample, but among groups. Women, in particular, have moved toward Kerry, as have, perhaps most crucially, independents — the true swing voters in election politics.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 5, 2004 05:20:11 PM new
Let me give you ALL credit right here and now!
I (ADMIRE) the way you all have time to search the: Internet, looking for something to say!
It is a Bummer being me, having to put 2+2 together and coming up with my own thoughts, And then having to actually type them out!
posted on July 5, 2004 05:22:34 PM new Funny how it isn't "B.S." when the article supports your own point of view...
The plain fact of the matter is that more and more people arelooking on Bush & Co. with jaundiced eyes. The balance has tipped and Bush is looking at ever lower numbers in terms of voter approval.
While the actual war was going on, I believed that Bush would probably be re-elected hands down, since wartime presidents are rarely unseated. But unless he manages to drag us into yet another war between now and the election, I think the odds have gone up that he will not be re-elected.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 5, 2004 05:58:57 PM new
bunnicula: Said:
The plain fact of the matter is that more and more people arelooking on Bush & Co. with jaundiced eyes. The balance has tipped and Bush is looking at ever lower numbers in terms of voter approval.
While the actual war was going on, I believed that Bush would probably be re-elected hands down, since wartime presidents are rarely unseated. But unless he manages to drag us into yet another war between now and the election, I think the odds have gone up that he will not be re-elected.
[B]That is a very GOOD statment,and even though I hope your wrong.
You very well may be correct![/B]
The only other thing here by you were a copy & pasted news artical, which I won't read!
And what I said: Which proves you aren't all that bad!
Edited to try to get the Bold to work,For some reason it won't!
[ edited by dadofstickboy on Jul 5, 2004 06:21 PM ]
[ edited by dadofstickboy on Jul 5, 2004 06:24 PM ]
[ edited by dadofstickboy on Jul 5, 2004 06:25 PM ]
posted on July 5, 2004 06:30:46 PM new
Dado: you need to use lower case b's when using UBB, so: [b]
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
