posted on July 25, 2000 03:04:02 PM new
This topic spun off from a bidder problem on Ebay Outlook, and since it is one of those "hot button" topics, I've opened this thread so anybody who wants to can continue to discuss it.
posted on July 25, 2000 03:19:50 PM new
Hi Victoria
Thanks for opening this. Since it got WAY off topic up there.
Thing was about child support, geeeeez not sure how that all got heated. Oh someone mentioned how the ex who paid would 'squander' money or whatever instead of using it for the children.
I said, that I, myself, have raised my kids with no child support and we have done fine, it would have been nice to get it, but knew I would never get it from him. BUT now that my daughter is going to college, I help some, but she is applying for grants, which is fine, and working, but talking about whether children over 18 can 'sue' for monies that were never recieved as 'child support' over all the years.
I guess thats about the sum of my situation!
I've never been to the roundtable before, so
hey.... I'm Shelly, and I am an eBayer.
(but have other income besides it! )
I watch a lof of financial planning type shows and read websites, and I came across information somewhere that in some states, if the parent is financially capable, they are obligated to help pay for the college education of the child.
You might want to check into it. I wish I remembered more.
On another note, I once worked for a bank that was heavily involved with non-profit organizations. They helped fund a study that one mother was conducting, an independent audit of child support collection efficacy. This was an evaluation of one of the most affluent counties on California (and the country as well).
It's AMAZING how many affluent (6 figure income), wealthy (over 1 million in assets-- excluding real estate) people will do anything they can to get out of paying child support. One would think that child support payment collection rates are related to income, with the lower income being less likely to pay. But it has so much more to do with the person's attitude than anything else. Many of those parents elude collection out of spite for the custodial parent. All this bitterness among adults and the child is the victim.
posted on July 25, 2000 03:27:56 PM new
I was posting this to the other thread when I realized it was locked, so I'll post it here, FWIW:
Quickdraw
You said: "The parent taking over the care of the child specifically has decided they themselves are responsible for the upbringing of the child.If you can't financially suport the child, then give custody to the other parent.
I can't believe you said that. How do you know that they've "specifically decided" anything? Many times that decision was made for them when the other parent just abandoned ship, walked out, decided s/he wanted a "new" spouse or a "new" family or that they just couldn't be bothered to stick around and raise their own kids. Better, more fun things to do, I suppose.
Besides, it's not a matter of not being able to support your kids without child support. The point is you shouldn't have to since you didn't create them all alone!
Sheesh!
To the person who asked (ShellyHerr, I think?) about suing for back support: A friend of mine did just this, when she turned 18, and received about $8,000 from her father. He actually paid it, too, amazingly enough, even though he was a deadbeat for so many years.
Just to "qualify" my statements: I'm no longer a recipient of child support since my son's "sperm donor" bio father decided he couldn't pay support after marrying someone and having a new baby with her. I was a recipient of child support for the first 3 years of my firstborn's life, however, and only because his father was in the military and I forced the issue by writing to his commanding officer.
My husband (my son's stepdad) has adopted my son into his heart as his own (not legal yet, but we plan to do that someday as well)and has taken on another man's responsibility, and done so joyfully, and as a result we've let the CS matter drop. It's not worth the hassle at this point. Sad but true.
posted on July 25, 2000 03:33:13 PM new
miracle-I never understood why a parent would
neglect child support. Albiet I'm sure there are a 'few' parents recieving it, that may be abusing it, but I believe thats few and far between.
First thing,my kids dad said to me was, and even BEFORE the child support issue arose,was
'I will NEVER pay child support, if you try, I will quit my job, and I'll take the kids'
Well, I did try, he DID quit his job, but never tried for the kids, he didn't want them, though he did help raise them for the first part of thier 'growing up' years, oh about till age 8? or so.
He left, got married within 6 months and has kids, and lives in another state.
I doubt very much that he would pay for college, in fact pretty much know... he actually came all the way up here for her graduation from H.S. with the wife and kids in tow, new Suburban, they own thier home etc.... he spent 2 days here, because it just happened to be their 'vacation' and they had reservations for someplace on the Oregon coast. They gave my daughter $20 in a card for her graduation present though.
posted on July 25, 2000 03:37:58 PM new
Sheri -LOL about the Sperm donor, that was my 'pet name' for him for a long time.
He has other children, and those come before mine, they always have, now? we've just gotten used to it.
I agree, that the 'other parent' sometimes JUST CAN'T be given custody..... yikes... some of the men (and women) are alcoholics, druggies etc... and could NOT raise children, then again if they are druggies they probably wouldn't be paying child support either
posted on July 25, 2000 04:01:18 PM new
Shellykerr,
Do you have a child support/custody agreement in place and what State was it set in?
By him re-marrying and establishing a new family does not take away from his obligations. In fact, helps you to collect as he is less likely to run as current family is set up in the community etc.
Anyway, have to go pick up kids - will be back later.
posted on July 25, 2000 04:12:14 PM new
Shelly and Sheri,
It's so sad to read of things like this. I have never understood (and never will) the reasoning behind a person not taking responsibility for his/her children.
I, too, was the recipient of child support for years. Much to my regret today, I never asked for an increase in all the years. I felt like Sheri: It was too much of a hassle to do any more. I had been to court several times to get the children's father to pay at all and it was so emotionally draining.
I finally put a lien on his and his new wife's home after almost a year of nonpayment. One day, they decided to sell and found out about the lien and took me to court.
Guess who finally got their child support. The judge said the only way he would remove the lien was to have him pay all child support in arrears and set up an account that the court would hold. At any time in the future if he was late all I had to do was petition the court and they would send me the money out of the account and arrest him for contempt of court. Guess who never missed another child support payment.
Naturally, I got all the comments from the ex that I've read about in the other thread: not spending the money on the children; spending it on myself; etc. (The thinking seemed to be that if it didn't go on their backs or in their toy boxes it was not spent on them.)
The court said that 2/3 of my mortgage was considered support (2 children); 2/3 of all utilities were considered support; 2/3 of all food bills were considered support. As the custodial parents, we do have to pay for these things, which would be much less if we did not have the children. The 2/3 of the mortgage wiped out the amount of child
support I received.
Then there were the utilities, the food, clothes, entertainment, day care, birthdays, Christmas, and any other extras that the children needed. I also raised (and still have at home after 34 years) a special needs child who took more money to raise than most children. I supplied all the rest of the monies for raising the children; probably 4 or 5 times more than the child support payments.
I mentioned earlier that I regretted not pursuing the increase in child support over the years. Today, I realize I did a disservice to my children by not doing so. They could have had a financially easier life had I done so, and it was selfish on my part to not pursue it because it was an emotional hardship on me.
posted on July 25, 2000 04:29:32 PM new
boysmommy3-no I don't have any agreements legally or otherwise set up. That may have, well of course did lay the problem. We didn't because.... we didn't marry.....
I know that sounds bad, but I guess I was young and dumb and all that, and would never ever encourage my children to live that way.
For a time we lived 'like being married' had the 2 girls, and the 'family' thing.
Yes I could have legally, probably recieved child support, he signed his name on both birth certificates, if forced, to take that paternity test... HE IS the father...
Maybe I thought it would be too much of a hassle since we were not married. I dunno.
But he did warn me never to try.
dlilly-I really feel for what you had to go through! And of course *most* like your situation, the child support money doesn't cover everything! Dang whoever b*tched about paying and saying the ex squandered the money on the other thread!
Well my daughter actually wants to take me to eat LOL! And she's buying! I'll be back.
posted on July 25, 2000 04:53:34 PM new
Wow dlilly, it's great that it worked out in the end though huh?
My biggest fear/worry with pursing the child support issue is that it would hurt my son emotionally in the long run. My son's bio father is the sort who would drop in and out of his life at random. In the three years I received child support (taken from his military houseing allowance and sent directly to me), he sent ONE birthday card and saw his son 3 times.
I tried so hard to make sure he could see him whenever he wanted. *I* drove over to his parent's house when he was home on leave, a 70 mile round trip trip for me, even though I had a broken down old car and very little money. They never came on their own (when he was back on duty), despite claiming to adore their grandson.. they expected me to do it all, and for a while, I did. When he was gone on leave, I took my son to see his paternal grandparent's and included them in every event I could (b-day parties and such). I put out all this effort and none was returned. I wanted nothing more than to forge a relationship between the two of them even though I had no relationship with him at all to be frank.. it was a casual, physical relationship that produced our son. I put all of my personal negative feelings aside, and tried to do everything in my power to see to it that my son had his Dad in his life, but you just can't MAKE someone be a father no matter how hard you try. He made no attempts to build a relationship with his son on his own.
There was one time when he called me up, on day 28 of a 30 day leave, to demand a visit. I had no idea he was back in town, hadn't heard a peep out of any of them, and was literally walking out the door for a weekend trip of my own (with my son along) when he called. He hadn't seen him in 2+ years, my son had no clue who he was other than seeing pictures and what he knew from what I'd told him, yet his response to me telling him I was going out of town was to suggest that I just drop my son off for the weekend!! Obviously someone who doesn't "get it" regarding kids!
We were also never married so there was no court ordered child support. I was able to get it when he was in the military, because he signed a statement of paternity when our son was born, and he was also on the birth certificate. However, when he got married about 3 months before leaving the Army, he had his BAQ (housing allowance) re-directed to his new, pregnant wife and cut the support by 85% without telling me he was going to do it. Then, when he got out of the Army, there was no court order so I wasn't getting anything for months. My mothre paid a lawyer' to establish the court ordered support, that was about $500 just for the paperwork. *I* took the papers to his bio father to have him sign and agree to the CS amounts and it also laid out visitation, etc., and he refused to sign.
After that he ignored me and his son even moreso than before. Yeah, I could have pursued the matter, but my mom had no more money for more lawyer fees, and I sure as heck didn't have it. Besides, his bio father, to my knowledge, wasn't working anyway, and I heard rumors, through mutual acquaintances, that he'd been saying that if he was going to be forced to pay support he'd fight for custody (of a child he'd seen 3 times in 3 years, his own choice!!)... or demand overnight visitation, etc. Again, I had no objection to him having a relationship with his son -- it is what I wanted all along, but I did NOT want someone floating in and out of his life whenever he felt like it, with no *committment* to the child, so that's when I decided to let it drop. I feel he SHOULD be made to pay but the costs are too high at this point, on another level. I just hope my son doesn't ever feel like *he* was somehow the problem here.
Wow, I'm sorry that's so long winded, but it's the "full story"!
Regarding child support increases: My dad paid child support for six children, faithfully and consistently until they were of legal age where he no longer had do. Of course, there was an age span here of almost 20 years so the older ones (from his first marriage) were legal long before he and my mom split, so he wasn't paying this all at once. THey split when I was 7 years old and the CS amount was never increased because my mom didn't want to go to court over it, and my father basically intimidated her into not pushing the issue. He felt she should be happy with what she got, even though *his* income increased periodically, the cost of living increased, etc. The child support helped her support me in the most basic fashion: there was never any money for extras (yearbooks in high school, prom, dance or music classes, participation in school activities that called for uniforms, etc.) and my father would refuse, when asked, to help out with those things, saying "That's why i pay child support". He just didn't get that there was more to it than that, and I guess he thought my mom was squandering it foolishly too, even though she worked 60 hours a week and drove a 17 year old car in order to make ends meet, and had no obvious "signs" of foolish spending. <sigh>
People will believe what they want to believe, I guess. My father is very proud of the fact that he paid support willingly and consistently, too, and is the first to criticize someone who doesn't support their child, and I suppose it's becoming a rare attitude to have nowdays, but OTOH he begrudged my mom every penny of it, that's for sure. He met his obligations, though. I won't get into how he only felt he had to do what he was "obligated" to do, and how anything extra (like emotional involvement, warmth, caring) was "optional".
Had enough out of me today?
(edited for much-needed paragraph breaks)
Sheri
sheriberry on eBay
[ edited by sheriberry on Jul 25, 2000 04:57 PM ]
posted on July 25, 2000 05:04:33 PM new
I'm the other side of the coin. Non-custodial CS paying mom. Or I did from age 10 til he was 20 1/2. I was supposed to pay til he was 21 but my ex let me out because I was moving and needed to save up for a downpayment.
Since the divorce, I've never lived in the same state as my son. I was military, my ex went home after the divorce. I gave up custody because I could never give my son the extended family (gramps, grammy, uncle etc) or stability ( I would continue to move for the following 12 years) that his dad could.
Plus, as military, I would likely lose in court anyway, military being one step up from migrant farm worker. Better to have a cordial relationship with the ex, so he wouldn't bad mouth me after I was gone (which was my biggest fear).
I continued to pay CS, all travel costs, 50% of health and bought all the summer clothes and school supplies until he was 18, when he pretty much stopped seeing me. I guess I was a failure at being a long distance mom.
My husband pays CS to his out-of-state ex. I have a lot of hostility towards her. I'll try to be civil.
She received 1/2 of med costs through our insurance. She has, on 2 occasions reneged on her half then told the creditors where dad was.
She spent years convincing the daughter that, effectively, dad is just a biological non-entity, who is really only needed for what he can provide.
She plays mind games All the time. They're never home for the weekly phone calls. She jerked him around on visitation. Every time. After he picked daughter up, she called, at least daily, sometimes several times a day, to keep daughter emotionally unstable.
Daughter refuses to do the visitation now. Even though we moved to the same state to be closer. Must have been mom's biggest nightmare, dad being close enough for long weekends. Daughter will see him IF he drives the 6 hours to see her at her convenience. The last time we did that, and stayed overnight at a hotel, mom just could not let the night pass without calling to make sure that daughter wasn't enjoying it. Mom just wants the money and wishes dad would somehow die, yet keep it coming.
Neither of us ever missed a CS payment, or was late, or failed to provide to our other children what the one we had together has (or had, whatever).
posted on July 25, 2000 05:13:01 PM new
ShellyHerr
I know in my state of Ohio your kids can sue their father for the back child support when they turn 18.If they can't pay it all at once they will have to make payments to your child the rest of their life if that's what it takes.
My sons father has been paying for the last 5 years and my son just turned 19 this month. He can still sue him for the first 14 years of his life if he chooses. His dad has to pay for another 2 years for lacking on payments from the last 5 years and my son is using his child support money to pay for his apartment. I didn't go for support as soon as i had him cause i was young and stupid and he kept threatening he would take him away from me if i did and i believed him. Then i found out he couldn't.
We were never married either but if his name is on the birth certificate (which mine wasn't) you probably wouldn't have to go thru the blood tests like i did.
This is just my opinion but if your children need the money to go to school and you know he can pay i would go for it.
Wish I could give you and Sherry a big hug for caring for your children like you do.
I'm now an old grandma and feel for any single parent trying to raise children today. It seems it's much harder than when I did it. My son, the oldest, turned out to be a fine young man. My daughter, as I said before, is still at home with me.
I'm remarried now (about 14 years) and my present husband was still paying child support for one child when we married. If he had not (and also provided other extras), I would not have married him. I admired him for doing that. He stayed involved with his children.
I, as his second wife, can truthfully say I never begrudged his spending money on his children. That has in turn made his ex-wife and I friends. I refer to her as my wife-in-law. Today, we're just one big family. Most of the holidays,etc., that we spend with his children include the ex-wife and her husband.
The fact that two adults do not get along does not mean that they should use the children as weapons against each other.
My ex-husband is much like yours. He never really played much of a part in their lives. He might visit our daughter once a year. Thus far this year, he promised to visit her in May and we have yet to see him. He does call her on a regular basis though.
I wish you, Sheri, and Shelly all the best in the years to come. You're probably raising some little people to become fine upstanding adults.
Dwen
[ edited by dlilly on Jul 25, 2000 05:18 PM ]
posted on July 25, 2000 07:08:16 PM new
This will be long but hopefully my point will be made.
ShellyKerr:
I wasn't married either and am now receiving 2K a month in child support. This was done by myself without an attorney and once you are versed in the paperwork, it is fairly easy to do as long as you are determined and follow through.
Sherriberry:
I, too thought the same way. It did seem on the times support has been raised that he stopped seeing our son. However, reality is he sees him when he wants and ignores him when he wants irregardless of what is going on. I had to realize that he was and is a schmuck and if my sons's college etc. is paid by his increased support - so be it. Because if the support was lower there was never a guarantee on visitation and there isn't today.
Victoria:
The sad fact is that visitation and child support orders for the majority of police departments are not enforceable. They are civil matters and not criminal, therefore; they rarely like to get involved. Who can blame them - if you read agreements they are so arbitrary there is no way two years later a policeman can determine who's weekend it is. So most of the time when called out they will simply ask for the child and if whomever has them that isn't supposed to they will write a report and that is it. Same for malicious comments by custodial parents etc.
You can take a stack of reports to the court and the other party will simply get a slap on the hand - that is for visitation violations. Not the same for support violations. Taxes are attached first and then they will pull any licenses, drivers - real estate etc. You can put liens on mortgages, owned cars. You can garnish wages and the court will authorize this if he does not show up in court and set up a payment plan.
As was recommended by all policeman, judges and psychologists that I have discussed this with - they all say just keep a diary or running log of everything. You may look like the bad guy but in the long run your child or step child will become an adult and when questioning you - you can show your diaries etc. When they see you have had the stable life - have attempted to be consistent with them - never forgetting b-days etc. They will know and learn exactly who truly was there for them - physically or not. No matter how rude the ex is etc. - just stick in there - follow the agreement to the T -the child is counting on you even if your attempts are rebutted at each turn.
When my son was 2 years old one day on visitation his father said he had met someone and she was in the car - would I like to meet her? Of course I would - this woman would be around my son and watching him - I had to know she was safe. She was very nice and we ended up getting along great. Well, the ex did not appreciate that in the least and when they had their first child there was a big blow-up and it was 3 years later before he saw his son again. When he did - his wife and I became good friends again and low and behold 2 years later she has divorced him. She always made sure their family pics were not taken unless my son was there etc. - a dream for a stepmom. Well, now she is the owner of the company I work for her directly and my son sees his brother and sister more than he does his father. She is remarrying and my son is in her wedding. She is in another state and flys my son to her home to spend time with his half brother and sister once a month.
As for his father - he thinks this was all a big plan and conspiracy that we got together to break them up and right now has chosen not to see his son. He will lose as he will be a lonely man -
I feel the bottom line is that all attempts should be made to get along with the step mothers and/or fathers. They will be with your children a lot so you should know them and make every attempt possible to get along. Keeping in mind that you are doing this for the child not the x.
ShellyKerr -
If you do live in the Seattle area - I thought you did - I have a packet to obtain child support and would be happy to send it to you and assist you with the paperwork and steps if you would like. Recent signing of the birth certificate does count as proof b/cuz the father has to be there or their name cannot be put on it. (at least in CA) but I believe when you had your girls you could put down any name you would want so you may have to do blood tests. Blood tests are very easy and handled at a local clinic - takes approximately 15 minutes. He can be court ordered to do the same in Oregon.
posted on July 25, 2000 07:17:18 PM new
papaswindy-if my daughter did sue him for any money for all those years, I know it would put a bigger rift in already huge one,
thats what I guess I worry about. I don't know why. I could care less about the sperm donor but I care how it would affect my daughter. My younger daughter, who is almost 18 (yeah! LOL) is away at school, and she has 'fantasies' about her dad... she will tell me things like 'I'll just go live with my dad!' and I have to walk away and think,
'yeah whatever'. She's even gotten me to the point of actually having ME buy the plane ticket down there, to come home 3 days later! He TOLD her, he didn't think it a good idea for her to live there. But she still, once in awhile now, have this 'dad thing' when its clear he doesn't want much to do with them. He has called a total of 3 x in 10 years. The other times ? My GIRLS called him.... so it really surprised me to see him come here, but then when I found out it was 'vacation' , that didn't surprise me.
Acccck hadn't seen this guy in sooooo long, and yep he left to marry someone way younger.
And he did marry her.
Oh yeah, he signed the birth certificates, AND he signed whats almost like an adoption form, so they are on file in OK. where my girls were born (but didn't stay)
dlilly-glad that it worked out for your second husband and his ex, your wife-in-law? I'm glad people can be civil!
I didn't talk much to his current wife when they were here, and in MY house, she almost looked afraid? LOL of me... I'm NOT scary! they came to the house for an after graduation party. With their kid...
And I don't think I talked to him... he tried to talk to me...and I politely walked away I don't hold a grudge or anything...
I think my kids might, maybe not now? but later....
posted on July 25, 2000 07:23:28 PM new
oh WOW boysmommy3 we live in the same city too and you did this from here? Even if the dad is out of state, he's in Oklahoma. And I didn't see your post till after mine.
Um can you email me this info? You know? I still, for some reason,not sure..... (my evil mind? ) have his Social Security Card! Woaw.... yeah if you could email any info, that would be cool!
posted on July 25, 2000 07:37:44 PM new
No problem. I did my last increase from here and he is in CA. As long as you are diligent it definately can be done.
What is nice about WA is that you can handle all without stepping into a courtroom. At least in Snohomish county. There is a large building in Everett called support enforcement and ran by the State DA's office. They are court officers but you meet with them like an interview and not in court with everyone else.
I will be happy to send you the paperwork and to get the ball rolling. If you are diligent - you can expect a judgement within 4-5 months. What you would hope for is to complete the papers - have them served on him and he complies without going to court. That could happen within 2 months. All he has to do is sign the agreement and the court will stamp it legal. Then the collection begins. But if he is re-married and established with family in his community odds are it won't be that hard.
The state here will garnish his wages - that is pretty much mandatory unless you waive it. WA also adds on interest to any unpaid balance.
Please e-mail me at [email protected] and I would be happy to help you. I just need your address to send the package to.
posted on July 25, 2000 08:35:53 PM new
My ex has no choice but to pay support because the D.A. just takes it right out of his check and sends it to me. And now that I found out, through his own bragging, that he is making almost twice as much now as he was when the support order was made (6 figures) I have an attorney composing a letter to him with updated figures. If he complies and signs, all is well. If not, we change jurisdiction since neither of us live in the county the divorce was issued anymore and he will have to fly 2700 miles to come to court in Hawaii.
Knock on wood, it won't come to that.
posted on September 23, 2000 12:05:34 PM new
ShellyKerr,
Please e-mail me again. I am so sorry. I have been sitting here (not literally!) on your packet for quite some time. It would be easier for you to e-mail me than for me to go through hundreds to locate your addy.
Kept forgetting until the other thread was brought up today.
