posted on November 21, 2004 06:24:20 PM newJesus Statue in Public Park Sold, Fenced
The Freedom From Religion Foundation's two-and-a-half year court battle over a shrine to Jesus in a public park in Wisconsin concluded in November 2000 with the erection of a 4-foot, wrought-iron fence and two "private property" signs around the statue. The Foundation, with Clarence Reinders of Marshfield as plaintiff, filed suit in 1998 after receiving complaints by residents and motorists about a Jesus statue dominating a public wayside park, reading "Christ Guide Us On Our Way." The statue had been given to the town by the Knights of Columbus in the 1950s. The Foundation's lawsuit was initially dismissed by Shabaz after the city sold a prime parcel of the park to a group formed expressly to save the statue.
The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago agreed with the Foundation that the sale did not remedy the violation, because there was no wall or sign indicating the statue is now on private land. A three-judge panel ordered Shabaz to oversee the erection of a wall or fence with a visible disclaimer.
The Praschak Memorial Group could have moved the idol to another location and the City of Marshfield could have saved itself $60,060.00 of our legal expenses plus other expenses, like the cost of the erection of the fence and the two large disclaimer signs, and that would have been the end of it. Case closed. In a short time nearly everyone would have forgotten all about it.
But now our successful defense of the First Amendment will be long immortalized. We have encaged behind an iron fence for all to see the central figure of a major religion. There are two huge disclaimer signs stating affirmatively the principle of separation of church and state. And this will be ongoing into the distant future.
Whenever anyone looks at the idol in its newly-imprisoned setting he/she will see the fruits of our labors in defense of the First Amendment. With the fence and disclaimer signs we have left our freethought mark of state/church separation for posterity.
The idol cannot now be viewed except through our American secular lens, driving home daily to the viewers their true First Amendment rights. The religious shrine will now be viewed, surrounded and sanitarily confined, by a memorial to the First Amendment.
posted on November 21, 2004 07:39:26 PM new
and fenix says the Conservatives post negatively. Fenix count the number of threads that Yeager starts and posts about religion and gays it far outnumbers the posts the conservatives post.
Yeager why don't you get a life. Why don't you find a board where people will agree with you OR do you like the attention and aggravation. I will now put YOU on ignore.
If it isn't religion it is gays. What a pitiful life you must have.
Chastize me because I want to spend time with my granddaughter instead of some stupid program on CNN. Evidently you don't have a family or at least anyone that wants to spend time with you.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 21, 2004 07:53:19 PM new
That's right, libra, ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you... that way you won't have to have brain waves at all!
Better watch it Yeager, Libra is counting your posts and it seems you have gone over her limit...stop that right NOW!
posted on November 21, 2004 08:19:17 PM new
Ha! Yeager.. the old cracker has decided that you are posting all that negativity stuff.. like ..religion and gays... hee. hee..
She's better than watching the Saturday Morning Loony Toons... isn't she..hee heee..
Th..th..th..that's all folks....
[/b]
Mellow Maggie Rickem..Rackem..Rickem..Ruckum[/ Take that ball and really fight!
[ edited by maggiemuggins on Nov 21, 2004 08:25 PM ]
posted on November 21, 2004 08:29:10 PM new
Hey Maggie: that cheerleader follow-up of each of crowfarms posts is beneath you! You two are beginning to sound like Helen and kiara. You can do better.
posted on November 21, 2004 08:32:50 PM new
Libra, why does it bother you so much when people start religious and gay threads? They're current topics in the news, so why shouldn't people talk about those subjects here?
I'm beginning to think some posters don't realize this is a discussion board.
posted on November 21, 2004 09:01:44 PM new
Kraftdinner it was fenix that brought up the number of conservative posts in another thread.
I can do what I want if I don't want to discuss I won't. It is plain and simple.
Religion is private but if people get their kicks or jollies out of what other people do more power to them. I don't.
I don't feel they are current topics but dead ones that certain posters like to bring up just to stir the pot.
Kiara No this isn't a discussion board when certain posters come in and use cryptic ways to spell swear words. That is not discussion but in my books slander. They think it is cute, ya right those are adults posting. Very Childish. JMHO
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 21, 2004 09:05:20 PM new "Hey Maggie: that cheerleader follow-up of each of crowfarms posts is beneath you! You two are beginning to sound like Helen and kiara. You can do better.
Are you jealous?
Keep my name out of your silly comments. Kiara, KD, Maggie, crowfarm, Yeager, trai, Profe and I along with several other people here are all friends, NOT cheerleaders. Not a single poster here needs a cheerleader. If you need one, that is your problem.
posted on November 21, 2004 09:20:47 PM newKiara No this isn't a discussion board when certain posters come in and use cryptic ways to spell swear words. That is not discussion but in my books slander. They think it is cute, ya right those are adults posting. Very Childish. JMHO
Perhaps you would prefer sign language, crackerjack?
Mellow Maggie Rickem..Rackem..Rickem..Ruckum[/ Take that ball and really fight!
posted on November 21, 2004 10:35:59 PM newKiara No this isn't a discussion board when certain posters come in and use cryptic ways to spell swear words. That is not discussion but in my books slander. They think it is cute, ya right those are adults posting. Very Childish. JMHO
Libra63, put your glasses on! I wasn't even posting anywhere here today and where do you see my name up there? So why address me? Bedtime for you if you can't even keep track of who you're ragging on and bitchin' to.
posted on November 22, 2004 04:18:05 AM new
"Hey Maggie: that cheerleader follow-up of each of crowfarms posts is beneath you! You two are beginning to sound like Helen and kiara. You can do better."
posted on November 22, 2004 06:07:03 AM new
Another neglected lover of Maggie whines from his miserable corner. Maggie, you've just got to pay attention to these love starved bunch of PANSIE ASS'S.
posted on November 22, 2004 06:45:03 AM new
replay,
Troll posts? If you don't like my posts, then don't click. It's simple.
Your front yard is YOUR own business. A city owned park is EVERYONE'S business. It's a government owned property and the government CAN'T ENDORSE any religion over another religion. It's that simple. The disclaimer is to outline that the property is NOT owned by the city, so as to end any future controversy over this. It would have been much cheaper to just move it off the city owned property.
Libra,
I hope that I haven't hurt your tender eyes with another post about religion. In fact this post isn't about religion. It's about how a city government WASTED 60,000 of OUR money on a position they shouldn't have. Even if you don't live there, it's OUR money in the fact City of Marshfield recoups federal money from OUR taxes. If I wanted to put a giant Wiccan star next to that giant piece of cement, you would have a fit.
If I had a bible thumping neighbor like you, I'd fix you good! I would go to the local lawn supply store and get a small statue like this and wrap it is a rainbow flag, and place a sign that says, God loves everyone next to it. I would put it in view of your driveway so every time you came home, you would see it. Of course, at night it would be lighted too.
"Evidently you don't have a family or at least anyone that wants to spend time with you." Ha! Kiara, Maggie, Helen, Kraft, and Crow are my family. Sort of sounds like a legal firm's name, doesn't it. "The law offices of Kiara, Maggie, Helen, Kraft, and Crow!
Also, this is a discussion board and is open to almost any topic a person wishes to discuss. I don't think that I attack a person, but a thing. These things are in the news as noted. Civil rights and religious bigotry, Gay Marriage are just some of them. I do like the news and discussing those topics. I can't really discuss the failed war in Iraq in the fact that linda K has the monopoly on that.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on November 22, 2004 07:20:14 AM new
Ya, Maggie, to keep the jealousy level down maybe you should answer pricklane's posts once in awhile even though he never really says anything.
posted on November 22, 2004 07:23:31 AM new
Let's see....some old atheist man decides he doesn't like looking at this statue and starts making a problem about it even though it has been there since the '50's. [shaking head here]
THEN the people of that same community raise $60,000 of donations to purchase and keep the statue and surrounding land so that it can remain there....because it doesn't bother the majority of the community citizens...not even the Jewish people in that area.
But..oh no....even though it's privately owned land...the old atheist coot is still not happy and the anti-religious group gets involved in getting it removed.
Tax money wasted? Yes, because of the atheists.
Glad to hear the community's desire won out and it's still there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
It's unfortunate that the beauty of a public park has been compromised by the religious statue and a fence but the sign, supporting the First Amendment makes that aesthetic consideration unimportant while making a powerful statement that religious statues belong in a churchyard - not in a public park.
posted on November 22, 2004 07:39:30 AM new
Some more of Linduh's "special non-reading abilities" prompted her last post so I'll help her out .
From Yeager's OP
"""The Foundation, with Clarence Reinders of Marshfield as plaintiff, filed suit in 1998 after receiving complaints by .......residents and motorists about a Jesus statue dominating a public...... wayside park, """""
Should I read it for you?
Did you see PUBLIC in that statement?
Did you see RESIDENTS and MOTORISTS in that statement?
Sorry, Klansy, but offensive material should be removed from PUBLIC places....see, that means it's PUBLIC as in not PRIVATE.......no mater if it's been there ten minutes or four centuries.
MY money should not be used to promote other's religion.
Buy YOUR OWN land, YOUR OWN piece of cement and have at it if you think it'll get you to "heaven".
posted on November 22, 2004 07:41:25 AM new
linda,
You should re-read the article. It says.....
"City of Marshfield could have saved itself $60,060.00 of our legal expenses plus other expenses, like the cost of the erection of the fence and the two large disclaimer signs, and that would have been the end of it."
the city spent the money to save the hunk of concrete. They should have moved it in the first place when asked. Think of all the good thing the city could have done with that money. Fire and police equipment for a start. If the city has it's own school district, then it could have gone there too.
"Glad to hear the community's desire won out and it's still there."
Actually, they didn't win anything. They, they citizen's lost a piece of the park and the city lost 60,000 of it's money. The city doesn't own the property anymore. So the city can't/ins't displaying the statue in the fact it doesn't own it. It is in view to the public, and that's OK, but as long as it's not owned by the city. Again, a $60,000 waste of taxpayers money.
Another way of ending this would have been a wrecking ball and a dump truck to haul away the debris would have cost only about $2,000 to the public.
Also, how do you know the man was/is an atheist? Did you ask him?
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on November 22, 2004 07:46:16 AM new
The statue is still there helen. The atheist who started all this STILL has to look at it.
----------------
And many believe our Nation was founded on Christian beliefs....even though you atheists keep saying it wasn't.
This incident reflects how far out of touch much of the liberal establishment is with the American people. Polls show that a vast majority of Americans believe in God and believe that He is an essential part of the founding of our country.
[taken from an article in April 2004 - WorldNetDaily.com]
There is a real division growing in the United States. There is a powerful minority in strategic places who are trying to rewrite the history surrounding the creation of the Constitution. They are trying to cover up the consistent history of what our greatest leaders are on record as saying regarding the place of Christianity in our country. They are trying to use the judiciary to rewrite the meaning and intentions of the Founding Fathers. Talk about a violation of the principle of the separation of powers!
Just listen again to some of the statements they wrote:
George Washington, founding father and first president: "It is rightly impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible."
Samuel Adams (1722-1803), a major founding father and signer of the U.S. Constitution said: "Our unalterable resolution would be to be free. They have attempted to subdue us by force, but God be praised! in vain. Their arts may be more dangerous then their arms. Let us then renounce all treaty with them upon any score but that of total separation, and under God trust our cause to our swords."
Patrick Henry (1736-1799), courageous politician, a founding father and a contributor to the Constitution wrote: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians."
Thomas Jefferson, founding father and third president – also the man to whom the doctrine of the "wall separation between church and state was falsely attributed said: "My views ... are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others."
Jefferson also wrote: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"
John Quincy Adams (1767-1848), sixth president of the U.S. wrote: "Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"
In the modern era, Presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Ike Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, et. al, invoked God's help before the American people. [note - As has President Bush]
Bible verses are etched in the stones of virtually all of our federal buildings in Washington, D.C. – especially in the Supreme Court building.
If the anti-God crowd wants to eliminate all public expression of Christian conviction, then they must do so in defiance and contradiction of the clear history of this country.
But they will succeed in doing so unless the Christians of this country don't stop singing "Standing on the promises" and just sit on the premises. Christians need to rise up and drive these scoundrels out of places of authority before we are robbed of the freedom to do so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 22, 2004 07:54:29 AM new
"Another neglected lover of Maggie whines from his miserable corner. Maggie, you've just got to pay attention to these love starved bunch of PANSIE ASS'S."
LOL-Helen...I cant believe you said that !
[ edited by classicrock000 on Nov 22, 2004 07:58 AM ]
posted on November 22, 2004 08:00:25 AM new
There's nothing wrong with my reading abilities. It's that you atheists think there's only YOUR side to any story. Not true in any issue.
----
Saturday, October 24, 1998
Christ statue in park causes furor
By PETER MALLER
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
MARSHFIELD, Wis. --
Motel owner Clarence Reinders loathes the sight of a 17-foot statue of Jesus Christ erected in 1959 at a city park in this central Wisconsin community.
An atheist most of his life, he kept his feelings private until his wife, a devout Roman Catholic, died last winter. Then Reinders, who spent six years of his youth studying to become a priest, sued the city to have the figure removed from Praschak Wayside Park, a campground and picnic area bordering the city's main thoroughfare.
Despite knowing that his neighbors in this church-going city likely would turn against him, he filed suit in federal court, alleging that Marshfield had violated the constitutional separation of church and state.
Since that suit was filed in April, the case has generated strong emotions that have reverberated beyond Marshfield. And with a judge set to rule on the case as early as next month, two national organizations with sharply differing perspectives have joined the debate.
The fact that the issue now has such a high profile is disturbing some residents. They're worried that life in Marshfield, an otherwise harmonious community best-known for the Marshfield Clinic, could turn ugly if dogmatic outsiders use this matter to prove a point.
"I don't want to see our town become a battleground for extremists on both sides," said Jeff Klieman, a history professor at the University of Wisconsin- Marathon County and member of a group that wants to keep the statue in place. "We have to live here."
On one side is the American Center for Law and Justice, a law firm founded by television evangelist Pat Robertson. The city asked the group for legal assistance after the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national organization that opposes use of public land for religious purposes, joined Reinders' lawsuit.
The statue of Christ was donated to the city nearly four decades ago by the local Knights of Columbus. For the most part, the statue hasn't generated much fuss in this community of about 20,000.
But Reinders, 67 and the son of a church organist, says the figure of Christ bothers him so much that he uses alternative routes to travel through Marshfield to avoid passing it.
"There are all kinds of churches in this town full of religious statues," he said. "Why they must have this statue in a public park, I do not know."
Reinders' lawsuit has angered civic leaders and many residents. Viewing it as an affront to the community, supporters formed a private foundation to purchase the statue and a slice of land surrounding it from the city.
"After all these years, I can hardly believe this whole business came up," said Leona Bersell, an 85-year-old resident who donated money to the foundation. "I think it's just fine where it is." Even a local rabbi says he has no problem with the statue. "When it was erected in the 1950s, communities all over the United States were less aware of church vs. state issues," said Rabbi E. Daniel Danson, of Mount Sinai Congregation in nearby Wausau. "I think we need to view the Marshfield statue in that historic context. But if a community today wanted to put up a religious figure in a park, I'm sure the Jewish community would very much oppose it."
Seated behind a cluttered desk at Hillcrest Motor Lodge, which he has operated here for almost 19 years, Reinders looks the part of the successful businessman that he is. Wearing black pants, suspenders and a white shirt open at the collar, he talked about his disdain for all religions. "I was brainwashed by the church until I was 22 years old -- and I've spent the rest of my life trying to get over it," said Reinders, a member of Freedom From Religion since 1985. "The church is a cult and it's a fraud. It controls people's minds. It promotes hatred, war and killing. It stirs up people's worst instincts."
But Reinders is clearly in the minority in Marshfield. The foundation set up to preserve the statue raised more than $60,000 in the first month it collected donations. The newly formed Henry A. Praschak Memorial Fund bought the property in the park with community donations for $21,560 in July.
That won't wash with the Freedom From Religion organization. "You just can't take a bit out of city property," Executive Director Anne Nicol Gaylor said. "It does not change the perception that the statue is part of the park." Groups such as the American Center for Law and Justice are made up of Bible-thumping Christians who want their brand of religion to become woven into the fabric of every community in America, she said. "Their agenda is to spread Christianity," she said. "What they're really interested in doing is starting a religious theocracy. They'd have religious statues all over the country if they could."
(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 22, 2004 08:52:52 AM new
linda says, ""The statue is still there helen. The atheist who started all this STILL has to look at it.
----------------
And many believe our Nation was founded on Christian beliefs....even though you atheists keep saying it wasn't.
This incident reflects how far out of touch much of the liberal establishment is with the American people. Polls show that a vast majority of Americans believe in God and believe that He is an essential part of the founding of our country. """"
OK, first she seems amazingly happy to shove her religion down everyone else's throat....what a "christian" thing to do!
And, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO BELIEVES IN GOD OR NOT! Surely, even linduh can see this has to do with using PUBLIC money and property to promote religion.
This is wrong. Linda who obviously has Communist leanings believes everyone should believe the same thing.
Well, in this country, so far anyway, we should have a right to believe any way we wish....don't you agree this is SUPPOSED to be a DEMOCRACY ??????
DOES NOT MATTER if god wrote the constitution or not......this is SUPPOSED to be a FREE society.
COMMUNISM says ALL MUST believe the same thing .........just like linduh!
posted on November 22, 2004 10:54:26 AM new
The thread topic is:
$60,000 of taxpayer money wasted.
Now we know exactly WHO was the cause of that waste of tax dollars...an atheist who was going against what his own community wanted. They fought him and they won. The statue is still there....with a warning so this man won't become offended each time he drives a different way so he won't have to view it.
Wonder how much taxpayer money will be spend, in years to come, trying to have the USSC and other government buildings refaced.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 22, 2004 11:16:13 AM new
Interesting. If these atheists think this is so offensive, then what must they think of Churches on every couple blocks in a big city, with the cross usually outside on display. Yes its private property, but they still have to look at them, or sheild their eyes for them. Or shall Churches put up warning signs also?
posted on November 22, 2004 11:17:15 AM new
Oh How touching linduh is concerned about THIS taxpayer money.
Not too concerned about how much taxpayer money goes to make up the taxes lost through bush's buddies with off-shore addresses......this is BILLIONS of dollars .
Years ago in America there were whole communities who wanted slavery to continue, too. That didn't make it right.
You don't need to tell me what the topic is.
YOU started stirring the pot with your hatred of anyone who doesn't fall in line behind you like a good little COMRAD !
posted on November 22, 2004 11:29:40 AM new
Oh...they're after the Churches too. ;-( They've already filed lawsuits to stop church bells from ringing and on churches whose congregation has wanted to enlarge their size..or repair their buildings. They're fighting on every avenue they can.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
edited to add the atheists not to long ago forced the City of LA to remove a tiny, tiny cross from their official city seal....costing the taxpayers heaven only knows how much money to change everything that seal is on...including all the paper letter head.
And anyone who's aware of CA history knows the CA missions, which run the full length of the state, from Northern CA to Southern CA. are also a HUGE part of CA's history ....and they weren't built, funded nor supported by atheists.
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 22, 2004 11:41 AM ]
posted on November 22, 2004 11:38:19 AM new
I am so sorry Kiara. I think I have done that before. I do mean kraftdinner.
Helen you said " Kiara, KD, Maggie,crowfarm, Yeager, trai, Profe and I along with several other people here are all friends, NOT cheerleaders."
Well name the others here that are all friends. There are not many more that post positive remarks to most of your posts. You do have to admit that when one of the named above posts the rest follow 1,2,3. They do come in and post like cheerleaders. They applaud, jump for joy, cheer and that's what cheerleaders do.
I'll even bet yeager is upset that churches don't have to pay taxes.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
Prevent Bigotry through Education.