posted on December 3, 2007 06:20:32 PM new
No and no. Gypsies are thought to have their earliest roots in India, spreading into the Middle East, they arrived in Europe around 1000 AD, claiming they were expelled from their homeland Little Egypt by the Saracens. The ones who went to Romania lived as chattel slaves until 1856 when they were given their freedom.
posted on December 3, 2007 07:12:57 PM new
And the rest of the story:
The Gypsies of Europe were registered, sterilized, ghettoized, and then deported to concentration and death camps by the Nazis. Approximately 250,000 to 500,000 Gypsies were murdered during the Holocaust - an event they call the Porajmos (the "Devouring".
A Short History
Approximately a thousand years ago, several groups of people migrated from northern India, dispersing throughout Europe over the next several centuries. Though these people were part of several tribes (the largest of which are the Sinti and Roma), the settled peoples called them by a collective name, "Gypsies" -- which stems from the one time belief that they had come from Egypt.
Nomadic, dark-skinned, non-Christian, speaking a foreign language (Romani), not tied to the land - the Gypsies were very different from the settled peoples of Europe. Misunderstandings of Gypsy culture created suspicions and fears, which in turn led to rampant speculations, stereotypes, and biased stories. Unfortunately, too many of these stereotypes and stories are still readily believed today.
Throughout the following centuries, non-Gypsies (Gaje) continually tried to either assimilate the Gypsies or kill them. Attempts to assimilate the Gypsies involved stealing their children and placing them with other families; giving them cattle and feed, expecting them to become farmers; outlawing their customs, language, and clothing as well as forcing them to attend school and church.
Decrees, laws, and mandates often allowed the killing of Gypsies. For instance, in 1725 King Frederick William I of Prussia ordered all Gypsies over 18 years of age to be hanged. A practice of "Gypsy hunting" was quite common - a game hunt very similar to fox hunting. Even as late as 1835, there was a Gypsy hunt in Jutland (Denmark) that "brought in a bag of over 260 men, women and children."1
Though the Gypsies had undergone centuries of such persecution, it remained relatively random and sporadic until the twentieth century when the negative stereotypes became intrinsically molded into a racial identity, and the Gypsies were systematically slaughtered.
The Gypsies Under the Third Reich
The persecution of Gypsies began in the very beginning of the Third Reich - Gypsies were arrested and interned in concentration camps as well as sterilized under the July 1933 Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring. Yet, in the beginning, Gypsies were not specifically named as a group that threatened the Aryan, German people. This was because under Nazi racial ideology, Gypsies were Aryans.
Thus, the Nazis had a problem: how could they persecute a group enveloped in negative stereotypes but supposedly part of the Aryan, super race?
After much thinking, Nazi racial researchers found a "scientific" reason to persecute at least most of the Gypsies. They found their answer in Professor Hans F. K. Günther's book Rassenkunde Europas ("Anthropology of Europe" where he wrote:
* The Gypsies have indeed retained some elements from their Nordic home, but they are descended from the lowest classes of the population in that region. In the course of their migrations, they have absorbed the blood of the surrounding peoples, and have thus become an Oriental, western-Asiatic racial mixture, with an addition of Indian, mid-Asiatic, and European strains. Their nomadic mode of living is a result of this mixture. The Gypsies will generally affect Europe as aliens.2
posted on December 3, 2007 08:45:54 PM new
My cousin in Mexico has a group of Gypsies who show up once a year at roundup time to help with the dirty work. They camp out and work like the devil for food, drink and a little pay. They haul off the hides from slaughtered beef and sheep and use them to make leather goods they sell in other areas. Always traveling. It's fun when they are there, they all seem to be natural musicians and throw a great party...Many Mexican Gypsies came to the country early in the 20th century, mostly from central Europe, Russia and some few from Spain. Those who come to my cousin's place still seem to have Russian surnames. They speak an odd Spanish and among themselves their own language which they call Rom. Far as I can tell none of them are Romanian. Ceaucescu or however you spell it did his best to exterminate Gypsies when he was the dictator of Romania if my memory serves.
posted on December 3, 2007 08:52:03 PM new
Meant to add, it's my understanding that the words Rom, Romani and Romania are coincidental and in no way related. Romania's name and language get their name from their connection to Rome. Romanian is a Romance Language, connected to Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, Portugese etc., unlike other central European languages and VERY unlike Rom or Romani, the Gypsy language which I believe is related to some of the languages of India.
posted on December 4, 2007 03:51:14 PM newFrom National Geographic...
"Once thought to be Egyptian - hence the name Gypsies = the Roma, as many call themselves, originated in India, appearing in Europe in the 14th century. From the beginning they faced hostility and persecution. At various times they have been enslaved, sterilized, forbidden to speak their own language or to wear their distinctive bright clothes. Yet they have confounded predictions of their disappearance and now count as Europe's largest minority."
When I was a child in Mississippi a group of gypsies camped near my grandparents farm on their way to New Orleans where their music and colorful life style was appreciated. But elsewhere throughout the south they were stigmatized and subjected to the same type of prejudice and intolerance that blacks had to endure.
posted on December 4, 2007 04:41:14 PM new
When I was a kid, we frequently used the word "gyp" to mean swindle. As an adult, someone scolded me for using the word, telling me it was ethnically degrading. It had never occurred to me that it came from the word "gypsy". I'm sure it had never occurred to my parents,either, or they would have never tolerated it.
posted on December 4, 2007 04:52:23 PM new
Wow, Pixia! I had never made that connection between gypsy and the word "gyp" either. Thanks for mentioning it.
posted on December 4, 2007 06:07:17 PM new
very interesting.
I recall someone pointed out the name Gypsy came from Indian/Sanskrit word which means-those who entertain.
They were entertainers!
*
Lets all stop whining !
*
posted on December 4, 2007 06:32:49 PM new
I have been doing some reading on ancient civilisation,I dont mean the ones 4000 years old,I mean the possible old ones like they speculated with the Sphinz and the Giza pyramid and Atlantis etc.
That a map drawn by a Turkish officer in 16th c from an ancient map showing ANTARTICA which no snowcap and that Siberia was once a warmer place to live ,in fact the Siberian said long long long time ago the people can travel in time to look for solutions to their problems.
And that the earth is hollow and there are people who live inside the earth-pilots who flew over North Pole had spotted people and bison like animals.
And a Norwegian sailer who claimed to have lived among them for 2 years with his father ,said that they spoke a language close to Sanskrit and they love music.
Here is some interesting information on the ARYAN RACE-
History of the Ancient Aryans
Outlined in Zoroastrian scriptures.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~zarathus/histar33.html
Iran is the ancient name of Persia, and it is derived from the root "Arya" or Aryan, the Indo-European branch of peoples who settled in that land. The Aryans of ancient Iran were Mazdayasni Zarathushtris, ie. Worshippers of Ahura Mazda (the name of God in Avestan) as revealed by the ancient prophet Zarathushtra, thousands of years before Christ.
However, all the ancient Zoroastrian scriptures speak of an earlier homeland from where our people came, the lost "Airyane Vaejahi" or seedland of the Aryans. From this homeland, the Indo- Europeans or Aryans moved to upper India, Iran, Russia and the nations of Europe such as Greece, Italy, Germany, France, Scandinavia, England, Scotland and Ireland.
Sanskrit, Latin, Avestan are all sister languages, and the present day upper Indian, Persian and European languages are related eg. Baradar in persian = Brata in sanskrit = Brother in english. "Persia" is actually a late European term for the land of "Farsi" language ie. Iran. The Arabic phase in Iran only began 1300 years ago, and we had to escape to India to preserve our Zoroastrian religion.
The "Vendidad" is one of the ancient scriptures of the Zoroastrians, actually called the "Vi-daevo-dat" or the law to fight against evil. In the first "Fargad" or chapter, the Golden Age of the ancient Aryans is outlined with their greatest king, "Yima Kshaeta" (Yam Raj in the Indian Vedas) who banished old age and death. Then, the ice age broke on the ancient home and the Aryans were forced to migrate southwards, to the southeast and the southwest.
Mr. Bal Gangadhar Tilak, a great Brahmin (Indian Aryan) scholar of India in the last century studied the Vedas and the Vendidad to find an ancient homeland of the Aryans. The Vedas are scriptures written by the Indo-Europeans or Aryans after they migrated to India. From the descriptions of the weather patterns mentioned in the Vedas, Tilak concluded that the ancient home must be in the Artic regions ie. above present Russia.
The Aryans migrated from the ancient home to Iran and from there to India and Greece and Europe. Tilak also said that the most ancient historical scripture was the Iranian Vendidad, which actually describes the ancient homeland of the Aryans, the Aryan King Yima Kshaeta who ruled over it (Yama Raja, lord of the underworld in latter day Indian Hinduism) and the onrush of winter, sent by ahriman (the devil) which caused the great migration. This is the famous first "Fargad" of the Vendidad which fascinated a lot of European scholars in the last century.
The ancient Aryans believed that the world as created by Ahura Mazda was perfect, with no evil. The first man Gayo Maretan had no disease, no illness, no hunger and thirst. Only the good creation of God existed eg., the Dog, Cow and Bull, Horse, Cock, Birds etc. Then ahriman the evil one attacked the world and caused evil to appear, disease and illness and old age, and the animals and the first man started to die. Night began to fall (before the sun was at the noon position - fixed, so there was no time). The evil brood of animals appeared eg. snakes, insects, and the cat breed. So evil in the ancient faith is an external introduction, which one day will be purged when the world will be bathed with the purification of fire - the latter also found in old German mythology. Paradise itself will be established on the earth, in the form of the Kingdom of Ahura Mazda. The English word "paradise" itself stems from the Avestan "PairiDaize", meaning the same. Also, the word "garden" probably stems from the Avestan "Garod-man" meaning the House of songs - the ancient name of heaven for the Aryans.
The Kings of ancient Iran were very proud to call themselves Aryans, their rock edicts indeed say so. "I am an Aryan, the son (Puthra) of an Aryan." This was righteous pride, because the word Aryan occurs time and again in the ancient scriptures of the Aryans - such as the Yashts (prayers to the divine elements) and the Vendidad (the law against evil).
About a time frame - today, many scholars tend to place Zarathushtra very late in time (around 1500 BC). The Greek historians at the time of Cyrus placed the first prophet at around 8000 years bc, that seems a more possible time to the former. However, the ancient Aryans were much sooner than that. Note that as per the Vendidad, Yima Kshaeta (King Yima) is the ancient king of the Aryans in the ancient homeland Airyanam Vaejahi (the seedland of the Aryans), and his memory is retained by even the Indian Vedas as Yama Raja (Yama King) because the Indian Aryans still remembered their ancient king after their split up in the migration, but they made him "Lord of the netherworld" later on.
Unlike the Indians, the Iranian Aryans still retained a perfect memory of days gone by -the perfect time in the ancient homeland, when Yiam banished disease, death and hunger from the homeland. This was indeed the true "Golden age" of humankind.
So, what about the time? The migration actually started before the ice age struck. When the ice and winter set in (sent by the evil one), the ancient homeland was destroyed. If the home was in the North Pole, look for a time when the North Pole was not covered by ice - that would be thousands and thousands of years before. I have estimated that time when the ice age struck as 20,000 years ago in my book, but the time could be much earlier. There were kings before Yima too, ruling over the Aryans.
Note too that the civilizations of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa in old India were actually Aryan, and they were starting to decay around 4000 bc. which means they had been in existance for thosands of years before (scholars admit this). They would have been built by the Indo-Aryans much after their initial separation from the Aryans of Iran.
An American friend said:
"Observation: There's an incredible thread here between something I've seen mentioned about a "Golden Age" of humankind..when humans were so close to their Creator they didn't need writing or speech or tools to sustain themselves..and the Zoroastrian story."
Thats right. Zarathushtra was sent by Ahura Mazda to reaffirm the ancient faith (that was taught to Yima Kshaeta and before him, the first man Gayo-Maretan). He was also given the "AGUSTO-VACHO" ie revelations unheard before. He was thus the first prophet, to be followed by three Saviours. When the final Saviour comes, the world will be purged by fire and evil destroyed in a final great battle. Then Ahura Mazda will rule. The mightiest words in the religion are in the Ahunavar, a great prayer. The ending words of this prayer in Avestan are, Kshrethamchai (Kingdom) Ahurai (God) Ayim (will come).
"Does the Vendidad have one set of general principles in one place, like the Old Testament Bible, or is it necessary to read the whole..."
The Vendidad is itself the ancient Law against evil. Throughout the book, there are Fargads (chapters) which explain the various evils in the eyes of Ahura Mazda. For instance, prostitution and homosexuality are abhorred, so is ill-treatment to dogs. Ahura Mazda praises the Dog as His Glorious Creation, who He created as the guardian of the Aryan household and farm. One Fargad details the ancient history of Yima Kshaeta, and the ancient homeland.
According to Lokmanya Tilak, one of the great fathers of Indian Independance and a Vedic scholar who had also made a detailed study of other Aryan cultures, the Vi-Daevo-Dat contained the most ancient history of mankind, since it properly explained the origins and the migrations of the Aryans.
In a translation from "The Saga of the Aryans", the history of the migration is explained in the form of a talk between the ancient Aryan prophet Zarathushtra, and Ahura Mazda (Avestan name of God in the Vi-Daevo-Dat.) :
Zarathushtra asked Ahura Mazda:
"O Ahura Mazda, righteous Creator of the corporeal world, who was the first person to whom You taught these teachings?
Then spoke Ahura Mazda:
"YIMA the splendid who watched over his subjects, O righteous Zarathushtra. I first did teach the Aryan religion to him, prior to you.
"Yima spoke to me, and said he would like to spread the religion among mankind by teaching others. It was then that I replied:
"O Yima you are not created for this task by Me. You are not learned enough to increase the religion among mankind - you are not the Messenger of the religion.
"Yima the righteous told me then:
"O Ahura, if I am not created for the task of increasing the good religion, then I would like to advance the world, to increase it and be a righteous king and protector. I ask You this, that in my kingdom there be neither cold wind nor hot wind (neither extreme winter or summer), there be no sickness nor death. That my subjects be undying and unwanting, and gloriously happy under my reign.
"I Who am Ahura Mazda, was pleased with this. I brought Yima a weapon - a Golden plough which was dagger shaped with golden forks, to signify that his authority was divine, sanctioned by Me. He became the mightiest King (KSHAETA) the Aryans had ever known, the most righteous and most splendid Aryan man.
"When Yima's rule extended to 300 years, then the Aryan land had prospered so much that the land became full of cattle, men, dogs, birds and red flaming fire (the fires kept burning in the house of every Aryan). Place could no longer be found for cattle or men.
"I made this known to Yima, and he proceeded towards the south, towards the path of the high sun (west), increasing the land with his golden plough (conquering and cultivating the lands). The boundaries of the Aryan kingdom were thus extended in breadth, one third greater than before. The king stood as an Aryan on the mother earth, praising the country with words fit for prayer.
"When Yima's rule extended to 600 years, the state of abundance reoccurred. This led to Yima proceeding again towards the south and the west, extending the boundaries of the Aryan kingdom two thirds greater than before. Thus happened the second great migration of the Aryans.
"When Yima's rule extended to 900 years, abundance again led to Yima increasing the land with his golden plough, towards the south and west. This third great migration made the Aryan kingdom three times larger than before.
"In the first 1000 years of his rule, Yima the splendid enjoined righteous order on his Aryan subjects. He controlled invisible time itself, making it so much large in size so as to praise and spread the righteous law.
"That glorious age of the Aryans did not last for ever, O Zarathushtra! It was time for the evil one's attack. I Who am Ahura Mazda spoke then to Yima Kshaeta:
"O splendid Yima, towards the sacred Aryan land will rush evil as a severe fatal winter; evil will rush as thick snow flakes falling in increased depth. From the three directions will wild and ferocious animals attack, arriving from the most dreadful sites.
"Before this winter, any snow that fell would melt and convey the water away. Now the snow will not melt (but will form the Polar ice cap). In this place, O Yima the corporeal world will be DAMAGED. Before in this seedland the grass was so soft the footprint of even a small animal could be observed. Now, there will be no footprints discernible at all on the packed sheets of hard ice that will form.
"So, Yima; make a mighty VARA, an enclosure as long as a riding ground, with equal four sides. Here bring the families of Aryan men and women, cattle, dogs, birds and the red flaming fire.
"Inside the Vara, make water flow in a canal, one Hathra long. Keep earth inside the Vara, to grow green vegetables as food. Make cattle pens, to house the cattle of the Aryan people.
"Let love blossom unfailing in the enclosure, among the young couples therein - make for them a residence, with rooms, pillars, long extended walls and an enclosing wall."
posted on December 6, 2007 09:33:50 PM new
Did anyone here see the short-lived TV show starring Eddie Izzard and a family of gypsies? I adore Eddie but watched only 3 shows; he just wasn't My Eddie on that show, at all.
When I worked at a big hospital, a gypsy group lived nearby in Ogden Valley. Once a year the king of the gypsies visited our hospital for a major checkup, had a nice room etc. His followers would hit the hospital, and the PA system announcements, though veiled, told us the gypsies were here and to lock all the desk drawers, etc. There would be perhaps 20 of them sitting outside the king's room, smoking, backs against the wall, feet pointing straight out. The head nurse would call and ask me to come up and tell them they weren't allowed to smoke. Some of them would go to the coffee shop in the hospital, order a cup of coffee with 40 little tubs of creamer. It was very tiresome.
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