posted on January 22, 2001 12:35:30 AM new
I've enjoyed reading the political discussions that have been going on in this forum lately and was hoping to get some answers to a few questions that I've been curious about.
First off I'd like to say I'm not trying to be inflammatory in any way, I'd really like some honest answers to these questions.
If one of the major themes of the republican party is to get "big government" out of our lives, why have that same "big government" legislating a womans right to decide what happens within her body? Isn't that about as invasive as a government can get?
I'd also like to know why it seems most republicans absolutely hate Bill Clinton? Not just dislike him, but hate him. They've been after him since he was first nominated and haven't let up since. I just don't understand where such hatred comes from, maybe someone can explain.
One last thing, it seems to me that so many republicans are willing to believe the rhetoric that's fed to them without checking out any facts to see if what they're told is true. I'm sure there are democrats that do the same thing, but it seems to me to be more widespread among republicans. Why do you think that is?
I was just hoping someone would be open to a good political discussion with no name-calling or anything of that sort.
BTW, though it's probably obvious, I am a democrat.
posted on January 22, 2001 01:03:34 AM newIf one of the major themes of the republican party is to get "big government" out of our lives, why have that same "big government" legislating a womans right to decide what happens within her body? Isn't that about as invasive as a government can get?
For opponents of abortion the issue is murder, not one of a woman choosing what to do with her body. Obviously you can be opposed to a large Federal gov't and still be for Federal laws against murder. The pro-choice and the pro-life are not just on different pages -- they're on different planets. That's why neither side can even begin to imagine where the other one is coming from.
I'd also like to know why it seems most republicans absolutely hate Bill Clinton? Not just dislike him, but hate him. They've been after him since he was first nominated and haven't let up since. I just don't understand where such hatred comes from, maybe someone can explain.
Not being a Republican or one who hates Bill Clinton myself I can only speculate. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he was an outsider who had the last laugh. He ascended to the presidency from almost out of nowhere (gov. of Arkansas -- he didn't exactly have the credentials of Daddy Bush), to beat the sitting Republican president. He wasn't elected by a majority. Ross Perot got 19% of the vote, and Republicans are sure that had he not been in the race Bush would have gotten most of that 19% and would have been re-elected. That is why, I believe, they disliked him from day one. In 1996 he co-opted most of the Republican agenda (what I can't figure out is why Democrats stood for this) to be re-elected. Although one would think the Republicans would be pleased that he passed so much of their legislation, for some reason they hold it against him. They hated him so they tried to bury him. They couldn't bury him so they in turn hated him more. The leasership sets the tone for the masses. If Gingrich, Limbaugh etc. had not picked Clinton to personally destroy than in all likelihood the Republican masses wouldn't particularly hate the man. Also, you should factor in that there really is a lot of negative things about Bill Clinton as much as there are good things. He is about as flawed a human being as there ever was. And he's a Democrat.
One last thing, it seems to me that so many republicans are willing to believe the rhetoric that's fed to them without checking out any facts to see if what they're told is true. I'm sure there are democrats that do the same thing, but it seems to me to be more widespread among republicans. Why do you think that is?
I think all generalizations are false including this one.
posted on January 22, 2001 01:06:31 AM newI've enjoyed reading the political discussions that have been going on in this forum lately and was hoping to get some answers to a few questions that I've been curious about.
I can only give you *my* take on them
First off I'd like to say I'm not trying to be inflammatory in any way, I'd really like some honest answers to these questions.
Hopefully it will stay non inflammatory--but that is extremely difficult given the topic...
If one of the major themes of the republican party is to get "big government" out of our lives, why have that same "big government" legislating a womans right to decide what happens within her body? Isn't that about as invasive as a government can get?
Extremely invasive. BUT--abortion is not only a political topic, but also brings in religious beliefs, if any. Not a good combination. The present wave of Republicans brandish aloft the sword of righteousness via their religion. Emphasis on *their* religion. Not all, but many (the most vocal anyway) believe that *their* beliefs are superior to all others & therefore should be adhered to, not just by themselves but by everyone. This is one reason why the continued separation of church & state in this country is important. And not just in regards to abortion.
I'd also like to know why it seems most republicans absolutely hate Bill Clinton? Not just dislike him, but hate him. They've been after him since he was first nominated and haven't let up since. I just don't understand where such hatred comes from, maybe someone can explain.
Can't really say. Again I'd say that your impression of Republicans on this point stems from the extremely vocal faction. But mainly, the strong dislike is probably from the fact that he is 1)not a *Republican* , and 2) he got caught having extramarital sex and 3) he lied about #2 instead of telling the Inquisition to get stuffed as he should have.
One last thing, it seems to me that so many republicans are willing to believe the rhetoric that's fed to them without checking out any facts to see if what they're told is true. I'm sure there are democrats that do the same thing, but it seems to me to be more widespread among republicans. Why do you think that is?
This is not just a Republican thing--most people regardless of political party affiliation are like this. But in the current case, I think Republicans were so desperate to get their man in the White House that they were willing to overlook just about anything short of murder. So what if their man knows zip about world affairs (to the extent that he couldn't even name the leaders of world powers)? So what if he went AWOL for practically his entire military career? Etc. etc. etc. He's a *Republican* See?
I was just hoping someone would be open to a good political discussion with no name-calling or anything of that sort.
Good luck
BTW, though it's probably obvious, I am a democrat.
Sam
I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. I vote issues, not party.
I think that you might reexamine your motivations in posting here with an eye to honesty with both yourself and the forum.
You SAY that you do not intend to be inflammatory, yet with:
If one of the major themes of the republican party is to get "big government" out of our lives, why have that same "big government" legislating a womans right to decide what happens within her body? Isn't that about as invasive as a government can get?
you imply that ALL republicans are both hypocritical and uncaring when it comes to individual choice and basic human rights,
with:
I'd also like to know why it seems most republicans absolutely hate Bill Clinton? Not just dislike him, but hate him. They've been after him since he was first nominated and haven't let up since. I just don't understand where such hatred comes from, maybe someone can explain
you imply that ALLrepublicans are hateful and vindictive beings bent on destruction of any element in society which does not jibe with their own views and subverts their God given agendas,
and with:
One last thing, it seems to me that so many republicans are willing to believe the rhetoric that's fed to them without checking out any facts to see if what they're told is true. Why do you think that is?
you imply that ALL republicans are little better than obedient dogs or at best, charicatures of human beings incapable of independent free thought, zombies, robots, or some perverse form of born again clones.
I really think that time, a good deal of time, spent in contemplation of the full meaning of the term "Play Ball!' might benefit you, but only if you are willing to accept and acknowledge the error of your ways.
posted on January 22, 2001 07:56:06 AM new
Disclosure: I am a registered democrat, whatever that may mean to anyone else. I've considered changing the registration to independent, and I can understood why others choose that position because I've been tempted and given it ample consideration, but ultimately it's too amorphous for me and in the tradition of Truman, I believe that I'm already pretty damned independent.
With the abortion question I agree with the observations above but would add one observation. I can think of no social issue which is not also to some extent a political issue and no political issue which cannot become entangled with the theological beliefs of some minority in the country. After all, the Puritans believed that God had entrusted the New World to the native inhabitants as caretakers until their arrival. Thank God that the Founding Fathers were predominantly influenced by deism.
With the Clinton question, again all of the observations above I think are accurate but in addition I think also that the fire was primed and fed early on by a group of ultra conservatives....think of Jesse Helms, Dick Armory, etc., and a group of wealthy private supporters....who believe that the country has been headed to hell in handcart since the social reforms of the Sixties. Clinton of course invoked the hated Kennedy magic and was/is viewed as a major problem in attempting to remove and/or revise much of the liberal social agenda since that time. Of course, there is also the residual lingering resentment of the New Deal and the attempts to overturn those. Orlansky, the creator of compassionate conservatism has to revert back to the Victorian era for his model of an idea social state.
I also doubt that any more republicans than democrats partake of a predigested diet of partisan thought. And though certainly not a majority, I believe that a larger percentage of citizens today are aware of and think through political issues than many might assume.
posted on January 22, 2001 08:30:26 AM new
Hello Iamsam,
"political discussion with no name-calling or anything of that sort."
An oxymoron!
As aptly illustrated by some of the replies you have already received.
I think of myself politically as a moderate/independent. As such I find it difficult to understand the positions and rationales of both the conservatives and liberals who tend to dominate contemporary political discussions.
[ edited by codasaurus on Jan 22, 2001 08:40 AM ]
posted on January 22, 2001 08:31:48 AM new
"If one of the major themes of the republican party is to get "big government" out of our lives, why have that same "big government" legislating a womans right to decide what happens within her body? Isn't that about as invasive as a government can get"
Being the father of two adopted children & a republican. I believe that women should the right to decide what happens within her body.
My wife has this same belief. We are very greatful that the two women chose to give life.
My Daughter & Son are prolife.
"republicans absolutely hate Bill Clinton".
I do not hate Clinton. I just do not have any respect for him. There are republicans I do not respect.
"so many republicans are willing to believe the rhetoric that's fed to them without checking out any facts to see if what they're told is true. I'm sure there are democrats that do the same thing, but it seems to me to be more widespread among republicans.
All politicans twist the facts & feed a lot of bull crap.
posted on January 22, 2001 08:37:19 AM new
I am an Independent...but quite conservative.
I DO have an intense dislike for Clinton, because he has blatantly lied...and he did it with great ease and apparent sincerity. I therefore cannot trust him, and this makes me angry.
posted on January 22, 2001 08:44:03 AM neweyeguy Try running for office. Women love power. If you were rich and powerful it would really help. Have you filled out your entry for PCH?
posted on January 22, 2001 09:42:31 AM new
I knew you were an independent (in many respects), toke, but I would never have thought of describing you as conservative. And your point about pigeon-holing is well-taken. For instance, I have some republican friends who I think could be more accurately described as liberal than some friends who are democrats. But for some time I've also thought the terms liberal and conservative have become almost meaningless unless used within either a broad historical context or within a very specifically defined one.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:08:15 AM new
Hi antiquary!
I think you're right about labels, but to just say Independent sounds like waffling. I'm darn close to being a Libertarian. I doubt government could ever be small enough to please me. I want everyone to have their best shot at freedom of action and of thought.
I want government (and it's ever-increasing regulations) out of my face. If we had a system extant that actually encouraged good and competent people to run for office, I might be able to abide it's authority with a tad more grace. I might even respect some politicians. But, as it is...
I know what I want is Utopian and basically impossible, but I'd rather work in that direction, than any other.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:36:17 AM new
Thank you for you replies. I appreciate the responses.
KRS I respect your opinion but I wish you'd reread my post. I specifically used phrases such as "most of" and "so many" so as not to imply that ALL republicans appeared this way to me. I try not to paint all with that same broad brush and I apologize if it seems that I did.
I guess my biggest problem with the abortion issue is that there doesn't seem to be many people working on trying to lower the number of abortions. We just hear the rhetoric of abortion=murder and that's that. Why not institute some realistic sex education classes in our public schools rather than pretty much teaching abstinence? Why not do more to encourage adoption? And I see today that Bush is going to cut all funds to family planning clinics that provide abortion counseling and abortions. It makes the right happy but how does it help the situation?
On the Clinton issue, James I pretty much agree with everything you stated. Bunnicula I also agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, we're all flawed. I can't see hating someone just because they belong to a different political party. I don't hate George Bush. I have no respect left for the man after the Florida fiasco, but I still respect the office he holds and I'm actually hoping he does better in office than I'm expecting.
As far as the rhetoric goes, I was mostly referring to the spin the republicans put on not counting all of the votes in Florida. I just can't accept the fact that so many people see nothing wrong with the way Bush was handed the presidency. I'm curious to see what happens during the next elections.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:16:40 AM new
Iamsam,
As I mentioned before I don't understand the extremists on either side of most issues.
I will hazard a guess that many of the virulent pro life folks have no interest in teaching sex education or birth control because that would be seen as implicitly condoning sexual relationships outside of marriage. Abstinence appears to be their answer to that problem.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:27:18 AM new
Yeah, toke, I know what you mean. I like McCain and B. Kerry both pretty much, but neither will ever be a candidate, just a tad too much integrity left. I would like to see a strong third-party emerge or a shake-up and restructuring of the present system, but it seems unlikely in the foreseeable future.
