posted on March 29, 2001 07:25:50 AM new
"As one of the Senate's more liberal Democratic members sharing stories of God with GOP company, Clinton's participation marks the latest evolution of her Methodist faith."
Holy cow, got both God and evolution in one sentence. Good for her, though, as it seems as if she is trying to return to her roots.
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:01:21 AM new
Good old LindaK and her foxnews holy writ.
What IS your point Linda? The comparison of a private individually chosen participation in a prayer group in a capitol office and the enforced prayer by all children in schools, sanctioned and supported by and through the state with state monies is absurd to the max.
One could begin to wonder if this hoof and mouth disease may be a scourge on the face of the earth which ultimately will end in the demise of all. At least there's some comfort in the knowledge that it appears to afflict republicans first, for some unknown reason of suseptibility.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:07:23 AM new
Hilary choosing to pray some place to the God she professes faith in is some what different than forced school prayer to a god the government chooses.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:46:36 AM new
krs - I found the article amusing and ironic at the same time.
On so many of these threads conservatives are painted with such broad brushes. Because one is a conservative, there seems to be an assumption (by many) that one is automatically a religious, church going, Republican.... whether they are any of these or not.
Then there are the many threads on the issues of separation of church and state. Which God? Who's God? No God!! Should we take God off our coins, out of our national songs, placks, walls, etc. Arguments of whether it is right or wrong for children to pray to their God in school (or not), whether they can have religious meetings, before or after school, on school (or in any publicly paid for place). Some don't want signs that say "Trust In God" or use the word "GOD" on anything.
Then I read an article that says both Democrats and Republicans meet weekly, for breakfast and prayer, in a publically paid for office, in our Capitol, and A LIBERAL Hillary Clinton, has joined them.
So that's part of why I found this article ironic. I've known that The Clintons attend church and are Methodist's. Wonder now if she'll be accused of being a 'Bible thumping conservative'. Wonder why a liberal, like herself, is not having a problem using the capitol for religious meetings. If it's okay for the Senate of the United States to hold prayer meetings, why would that not be equally applied to other publically paid for places?
I hoped to hear opinions from those who scream about separation of church and state on this issue. After all, many (here) are debating whether our country was formed based on religious beliefs, or not, and what their intent was.
Prayer seems to be okay if you're in the US Senate, for the time being.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:51:45 AM new
Morning Grannyfox - No where in my post did I speak to the issue of forced prayer. Krs added that as he responded.
One issue I am speaking about is children not being allowed to meet, on their own time, before or after school to meet for religious reasons on public (ie:school) premise. And not just that issue alone.
posted on March 29, 2001 09:09:17 AM newOne issue I am speaking about is children not being allowed to meet, on their own time, before or after school to meet for religious reasons on public (ie:school) premise.
Hi Linda,
That simply isn't so. As a matter of fact, religious clubs are allowed to meet on public school campuses. My son's high school has a "Christian Club" along with a "Gay & Lesbian Club" that meets on the school campus utilizing the classrooms, same as the "Chess Club" "Key Club", etc. The issue the conservatives are pushing is for school "prayer" during school hours. For example, a school prayer that ends the daily morning announcement over the school PA system, or a "prayer meeting" that takes place during regular school hours during "class time". THAT is the "issue" over school prayer, not whether religious (or any other kind of group for that matter) can use public school campuses off hours for their meetings.
I have always been aware that Hillary is a very religious person, as well as Bill. I don't recall anyone here criticizing anyone else because of their religious beliefs. I have seen people become irrationally defensive when others disagree with their religious beliefs and the points of argument usually develop when others assume positions that would directly or indirectly impose their beliefs on others.
Any government employee or officeholder is free to privately exercise religious practices insofar as they do so on their own time and in such a manner that it does not give the impression that the government institution that they represent is advocating a belief, such as lunchtime, etc. The same is true with the school systems. Students may meet privately outside of classtime and pray, read the bible, discuss their beliefs, etc. They are usually restricted from doing so, however, during classtime or at any officially sponsored or sanctioned school activities and they are further usually restricted from proselytizing. Each school, however, sets its own policies, and there are undoubtedly rare instances of bizarre restrictions. In those instances, the most reasonable approach would be to pursue action at the local level.
posted on March 29, 2001 11:39:31 AM new
Hi back at ya, KatyD -
That simply isn't so. As a matter of fact, religious clubs are allowed to meet on public school campuses.....(etc)
From what I've read, you're right in regards to your son's school. If any other 'before/after school activity' is allowed, then they have to allow religious meetings too. I have read many articles where students have had their rights to pray (quietly) before eating their lunch challenged. (Using as one example only - seeing many more.)
My understanding has been that different states have different laws (in regards to this issue) AND different school boards can make different rulings while considering their communities wants/desires into consideration. Some schools allow prayer in school, if the school board has met with the community and decided the majority feel it's okay. This isn't just a black or white issue (and I mean colors). There is much 'gray' in what is, and isn't allowed in schools.
I also read that Clinton had written and sent to all school boards, guidelines on how to handle these (religious & prayer) issues (as they arise).
But that wasn't my point. I was trying to ask others why, if they are so opposed so any religion being in the schools, they don't seem to have a problem with this threads subject. Our nations capitol being used for religious purposes. To me they are one in the same.
The issue the conservatives are pushing is for school "prayer" during school hours Respectfully, to you, I don't see it as limited as that one issue.
"...if they are so opposed so any religion being in the schools, they don't seem to have a problem with this threads subject. Our nations capitol being used for religious purposes. To me they are one in the same...The issue the conservatives are pushing is for school 'prayer' during school hours Respectfully, to you, I don't see it as limited as that one issue."
posted on March 29, 2001 11:57:23 AM new
Hello Antiquary - I don't recall anyone here criticizing anyone else because of their religious beliefs
Guess we're just seeing this through different lenses. To me, when an opposing view is shared, the person who appears to just be sharing their (different) views/opinions receive veiled insults about their intelligence, ability to understand, etc.
I have seen people become irrationally defensive when others disagree with their religious beliefs and the points of argument, (etc) I think it's human nature, when one feels they are being attacted (or insulted) to become defensive. I also don't see others expressing their opinions as shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. They're just disagreeing.
Maybe it's this medium, as some here aren't able to articulate what they're sharing as well as you do. But for me, I don't see it as anything other than sharing an opposing view.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:13:48 PM newBut that wasn't my point. I was trying to ask others why, if they are so opposed so any religion being in the schools, they don't seem to have a problem with this threads subject. Our nations capitol being used for religious purposes. To me they are one in the same.
Hi Linda..I'm sorry. I'm just not following what you are trying to say here. I thought you were raising the issue as to whether it is an irony that Hilary chooses to participate in a voluntaryprayer meeting that is held in a government building. I got from your post that you thought it was "ironic" because said prayer group meets in a government building. I think it would only be "ironic" if Hilary and her prayer group were to introduce legislation requiring members of Congress to participate in prayer meetings as part of their Congressional duties, when attending to business in the Capitol building.
Sorry, I'm just not seeing the point you're trying to make.
posted on March 29, 2001 01:30:37 PM new
Maybe Zazz...and then there is me.
I am against organized prayer in school. It is up to me, as a parent, to involve religion in my children's lives. It is not up to the government...ant more than it is up to them to teach my child morals and values.
My children were aware that no one can stop them from a quiet prayer. They are also aware that a prayer is a dialog between them and God and it does not need to be said aloud just so other humans hear it. That is not to say that it should be against the law to say a prayer aloud...but there is a time and a place for all things.
Respecting a multicultural student body in a public school is the Christ like (or Christian) thing to do. Our government deciding which god we must pray for is an unacceptable practice in an eduction provided free of charge by tax payers. To force all public school students to pray to the god a government imposes does nothing to save a soul and it should not be done in a nation that professes religious freedom.
However, if Hilary wants to get together with another senetor or two to say prayers on their time...more power to her. As long as Hillary does not make it mandatory that all Senators say the same prayer in the same way she does.
Prayers are a private thing. I believe that is discussed quite thoroughly in the New Testament (actually...I know it is). So to those who wish to beat their chests and say their prayers loudly to gain attention...I say, Remember the group in the Bible that did so.
posted on March 29, 2001 02:27:43 PM new
ROFLMHO @ pic, James.
[side note: I've been having ISP problems all day]
KatyD & Zazzie - The issue to me was separation of church and state. I was interested in hearing others opinions about how they saw the fact that prayers/prayer meetings are not allowed or not wanted in schools, but they seem to be okay in our nations capitol. It seemed like a double standard to me. Not consistent, IMO.
Then, a different issue, to me, was that many posts on these boards seem to always be throwing insults in the direction of President Bush and his religious right (or conservative) views/rulings/decisions. Just wanted to point out that Hillary, a Democrat, a liberal goes to prayer meetings too. OMG!!! But, I'm sure that's different just because she's a Democrat.
posted on March 29, 2001 02:44:41 PM new
LindaK---if you checked with the local schools you would most likely find there is no problem with kids meeting for lunchtime or before school prayer groups---just like on Capitol Hill.....
They have it here in our local high school--not frowned at all.
posted on March 29, 2001 02:46:53 PM newthe fact that prayers/prayer meetings are not allowed or not wanted in schools,
But that's just it. They are. Just not during "school time". Read Antiquary's post. The Religious Right continues to put out false information that prayer meetings and "prayer" are not allowed in schools. It's a blatant falsehood. The TRUE issue is that the Religious Right wants prayer in schools as part of the daily school curriculum. As GrannyFox points out, there is nothing to keep a student from engaging in his/her own practice of solitary prayer if that is what the student desired. I did it all the time before my algebra tests (and fat lot of good it did me!). There is no double standard here because Hilary and her fellow prayer groupers are not practicing their prayer meetings DURING Congressional sessions. It has nothing to do with the "building" in which prayer is practiced, it has to do with government or state sponsored business,(or education).
Now, what would be REALLY ironic would be if the Religious Right were to get their way in having "prayer" inserted into public education time. My bet is that after the Christian prayers, Jewish prayers, Muslim prayers, Wiccan prayers (and every other faith etc. etc.) were conducted, there would be precious little time left for EDUCATION. Afterall, the RR thought Bush's so-called "Faith-Based Initiative" was going to be a super idea...until they realized that an equitable application of funds was going to benefit their worst enemies. Then they started screaming bloody murder. THAT'S IRONIC!
