posted on October 11, 2000 11:30:07 AM new
I'm real disturbed about "Delivery Confirmation" being appropriate proof of mailing a package to a buyer versus insurance(under $50.00) which is not acceptable proof.
Here is what concerns me....."Delivery Confirmation" is ONLY GOOD if it gets scanned at BOTH Post Offices. Thats leaving and arriving.
I know this may be a stretch but whats to keep the postmaster on the arriving end to NOT scan the product for a cut of the action. Meaning "you don't scan it, It shows NOT received, I report to paypal I never got it, we get our money back and keep the item."
One thing I do know is that this is still pretty new to the PO employees and they can just plain forget to scan it. Not all Delivery Confirmations come with a BRIGHT GREEN label and can easily become an oversight. I speak from expierience as I'm a PO employee.
VERSUS: I insure it for under $50.00 (as most of my items sell for under $50.00), I have my receipt proving it was insured. If the item never reaches the buyer then its the Post Office who is first accountable. That being the case PayPal shouldn't even have a part in the claim.
Since we all know that the real way to get your items to sell is to be cost effective where "shipping & handling" charges are concerned. There is NO WAY I'm going to ask my buyers to Insure & do Delivery Confirmation...that would come out to an extra $1.20 tacked on to shipping charges.
I don't know this whole on line tracking for proof of shipment is highly flawed and suspect.
I have gotten along just fine doing it the way I have been, shipping the cheapest way and only insuring items over $30.00 or at buyers request.
Unless your a high dollar seller I guess PayPal's Protection Plan don't mean squat to me.
What brought all this on was I just took about 5 items to the PO from PayPal users and some I NEEDED to insure(under $50.00) and then having the feeling I needed to add Delivery Confirmation to it besides. So I did at my own expense.
This is getting really scary...eBay fees, paypal fees, DC fees. WHERE IS MY FEE?
I haven't decided yet if I'm even going to stay with PayPal, been hanging back till they come out with a "ONCE AND FOR ALL" plan.
I haven't upgraded to business(but I am verified) and I won't until they can come out with a policy that doesn't change every 5 minutes. BUT....with Christmas Sales starting it looks like I could be forced to very soon with this new $500.00 ceiling on CC sales. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Now we have all these new problems cropping up...Gheeesh, what next? I'm already in the process of closing my x.com account....what a lot of BULL that was!
For "CRYING OUT LOUD" its always something to make life difficult!
These are just some rambling thoughts of my own opionion that I find disturbing.
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on October 11, 2000 12:18:40 PM new
Hi Damon,
Yes it is scanned(hopefully) when the package arrives at the post office unit. It goes in the system as "accepted".
Then when it arrives at its destination it is suppost to be scanned "delivered".
There is 2 methods of delivery. 1st method: You can go into the PO and pick it up and it should be scanned at that time. 2nd method: The rural carrier takes it on his route with him and when dropping the package off(no one has to be present or sign for it) the rural carrier then is suppose to scan it as "delivered".
It is not a fool proof method that I can see. The package could get stolen also if it is just left unattended.
To many things can go wrong if you are going to depend on "Delivery Confermation" as proof.
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on October 11, 2000 12:55:46 PM new
Hi Damon,
I posted this last night in the "PayPal -- how sad" thread and it's now so far down the list I'm sure you haven't seen it. It's regarding DC vs PO zip code receipts.
Quote from Damon:
"Zip codes provide the city only as to where it was shipped to and not a physical address.
It is the reason why it could not be accepted as a proof of shipment in a dispute (it can also be modified)."
Damon, the following is the ONLY information available online for delivery confirmation:
"Your item was delivered at 1:25 pm on October 6 in MISSION VIEJO CA 92691."
This is from a delivery confirmation number for a package I mailed recently. It could have been delivered to a dumpster in Mission Viejo for all I know! Heck, there's no guarantee the item will be scanned at its destination zip code.
There's no address verification available online with DC and I can write any darned thing I please on my half of the receipt. How is DC any better than the post office zip code receipt?
(Other than it's trackable online.)
posted on October 11, 2000 04:33:27 PM new
Hi packer,
My follow-up question would be...
Does the item, when scanned at the from location, show as a scanned package? If so, this would provide adequte proof of delivery (as a note, the issue of lost in the mail is not covered under the program).
posted on October 11, 2000 05:28:51 PM new
Delivery Confirmations are as much of a pain in the rear as Postal Money Orders. I despise it when my Sellers use them and I despise it even more when they ask me to pay for them. It always makes me feel like they straightaway distrust that I'll admit to receiving the package. And I will NOT foist them on my buyers, either.
Sometimes my rural carrier (depending on who's running that day) has me sign the little salmon slip, sometimes not. I also resent the time and annoyance s/he has to go through with these.
posted on October 11, 2000 05:41:36 PM new
You may consideration "Delivery Confirmation" forms a pain in the rear, but they do serve a purpose. If your rural carrier isn't having you sign them, then your carrier is in the wrong and should be reported to his/her supervisor. That confirmation is for the protection of the both the shipper and the recipient.
There *are* other forms of shipping items. You could go through the hassle of UPS, RPS, FedEx, etc., pay a lot more, and still have delivery problems, especially with UPS.
[ edited by CherylHahn on Oct 11, 2000 05:42 PM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 01:03:47 AM new
Hi Damon,
Sorry for the late response but I had to work my RL job tonight.
To answer your question.....Yes it does show up as a scanned item...but...BIG DEAL...It tells you nothing of when or where it went.....you are totally wrong in your interpretation of "Delivery Confirmation" Din't you read "vargus's" response?
DC proves nothing more then MAYBE being able to look it up on-line. BIG DEAL....I would think a scan of an insurance receipt could & would hold alot more weight. An insurance receipt at leasts states the value of the item. You can't say DC does that can you?
At this point I've decided you can stick your "Protection Plan" and I will carry on as always and continue to save my buyers money.
DC is not the answer and I'm sure not going to insure a $30.00 item for $80.00 just to please PayPal.
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
[ edited by packer on Oct 12, 2000 01:08 AM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 02:54:22 AM newDamon - does the information stay online for a month?
I haven't cleaned up my desk in a while, here's an old DC number for you 03006000000048157079 enter that DC number into the tracking URL http://www.usps.com/cgi-bin/cttgate/ontrack.cgi and look at the results. It looks like it goes back further than a month.
And it looks like it has been too long since I cleaned my desk.
posted on October 12, 2000 10:49:13 AM new
Hi uaru,
Thanks for the information.
As a reminder, as long as the seller can provide adequate proof-of-delivery such as DC they are protected. This would apply to any kind of item that can be scanned on-line.
posted on October 12, 2000 11:01:31 AM new
Damon -
Again...is it proof-of-delivery or proof-of-shipping that is required? There is a big difference as proof-of-delivery requires delivery and does not account for anything lost during shipment.
FYI - In case you forgot, this question was asked when this policy was first implemented and STILL has not been answered and STILL the guarantee contradicts itself on this point.
posted on October 12, 2000 11:05:42 AM new
HI auctionee,
It is adequate proof of shipping, which is adequate proof of delivery, in the event that a user claims that it was not sent. All that is being looked for is proof that it was sent.
posted on October 12, 2000 11:09:39 AM new
Hello Damon,
I'm confused!
You are saying that your "Protection Plan" does NOT cover "lost" or "stolen" items?
Then why am I reading all over this board about accounts being frozen because buyers are claiming they never received their item?
If your not covering this then why get involved with feezing accounts?
ALSO... I haven't seen an answer to the question of "Does this "Protection Plan" only cover items of $250.00 or more? If thats the case then just say so...it sure will make it very easy for me to then know how to proceed with my shipping plans.
Why can't you give us some answers using a "senerio" or a "for instance" instead of the same old pat answer that only touches on the questions being asked.
For goodness sakes TALK TO US. I for one would quit bugging you if we could get some answers that made sense.
posted on October 12, 2000 11:24:35 AM new
damon,
You are counterdicting yourself.
YOU SAY:
[b]as a note, the issue of lost in
the mail is not covered under the program.[/b]
As a reminder, as long as the seller can provide adequate proof-of-delivery such as DC they are protected. This would apply to any kind of item that can be scanned on-line.
How is scanning it on my end PROVE it was delivered and not stolen or lost?
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on October 12, 2000 11:36:23 AM new
Hi packer,
This information is in the TOU..this does not apply to items lost in the mail...all you need to provide us with is proof that you shipped the item as promised.
:
What is the Buyer Protection Guarantee?
Purchases made through the PayPal service are protected against fraud when you purchase goods from a Verified Seller and do not receive the promised goods. You are entitled to a full refund if you do not receive the goods from a Verified Seller. The Buyer Protection Guarantee is effective as of 8/1/00, and applies to transactions paid through the PayPal system on or after 8/1/00. Buyers are protected for up to $5000 per year for fraudulent transactions. A $25 dispute minimum will apply. Please review the Consumer Protections section of our Terms of Use to learn more.
I paid for merchandise, but did not receive it. How do I get my money back?
You should first contact the seller to see if understandable circumstances prevented the shipment of your merchandise. If you are unable to resolve the situation this way, you should contact Customer Service immediately. If your payment for the merchandise was to a Verified seller, you can file a formal claim and be reimbursed for the purchase within 30 days from date of filing. You can file a formal claim between 30 and 60 days from the date of your payment. X.com will accept claims against Verified sellers after August 31, 2000. To submit a claim, send an email to Customer Service, and select "Buyer Protection Claim" as your subject.
What does the Buyer Protection Guarantee mean to me as a Seller?
If we receive a dispute stating that your Buyer never received the promised goods, you must provide us with proof of shipping. Valid proof of shipping includes receipts from shipping and mailing companies such as Federal Express, UPS, Airborne Express, DHL, etc.
What is the Seller Protection Guarantee?
If you are a Verified PayPal member, X.com offers you protection against fraud when you receive payment from a Verified Buyer. Tools for Sellers to search Buyer Verification status are currently under construction. The Seller Protection Guarantee is effective as of 8/1/00, and applies to transactions paid through the PayPal system on or after 8/1/00. Buyers are protected for up to $5000 per year for fraudulent transactions. Please review the Consumer Protections section of our Terms of Use to learn more.
posted on October 12, 2000 11:37:30 AM new
According to my postal workers, Delivery Confirmation is not a guarantee of delivery nor is it a tracking system.
El
"The customer may not always be right, but she is always the customer."
posted on October 12, 2000 12:02:07 PM new
Hi auctionee,
The delivery confirmation (or any other tracking mechanism)proves that it was brought to the post office/carrier to be shipped, which is an item to be delivered by the USPS/carrier.
This proves that you came through on your promise to ship the product and the evidence is in the scanned item that can be tracked on-line. This is what is offering you protection from a claim (this policy does not apply to packages lost in the mail).
posted on October 12, 2000 12:06:37 PM new
damom,
You say in your very own TOU:
I paid for merchandise, but did not receive it. How do I get my money back?
You still haven't answered the question.
If they didn't get there mechandise one of four things happened.
1.) Seller didn't send it.
2.) LOST in the mail.
3.) STOLEN when left on the door step.
4.) Buyer gets the item BUT claims they never received it.
According to you only the first one is applicable. So you just believe the person when they say they didn't get their and it is assumed WITHOUT question that the seller DIDN'T send it.
So to get out of it all the seller needs to do is direct them to the on-line DC confirmation.
That don't prove sqwat! All it shows is the city & state it was sent to. NOT who the buyer is, the value of an item, if it was a gift sent to a different address other then the buyers.
That being the case I could DC about every 10th item and if a dispute comes up just use the one I have whether it goes with the item or not.
Like I said....It sounds FLAWED to me!
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on October 12, 2000 01:44:26 PM new
Thank you Damon. That is what I thought you have been saying and what the guarantee implys. I would suggest that the wording in the guarantee be changed to reflect the more accurate proof-of-shipping rather than proof-of-delivery as it now states. If I were reading that as a buyer, I would think that I am covered if the seller can't prove it was DELIVERED to me, rather than only having to prove that they shipped it.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:20:43 PM new
Hi Damon,
Does PayPal use a good copy editor to go over everything your company puts in writing/on its web site?
No intending to be facetious here, but a good copy editor would catch this stuff and save you, your company and your customers a lot of grief, worry and teeth-gnashing.
Why isn't a (stamped) insurance receipt along with a postal receipt showing that a package was shipped to the destination proof enough? Whether it can be tracked online isn't relevant.
I have had several packages (using delivery confirmation) that never showed up in the system. THEY COULD NOT BE TRACKED ONLINE. If you mail from a contract station, it is many times not scanned into the system. If the postal employees forget to scan it on the other end, it never shows up in the system at all.
I have had several postal clerks tell me that delivery confirmation is a waste if you mail at a contract station (Something I used to do quite often because of the convenience.)
