ferrari52
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posted on July 20, 2001 04:31:53 PM new
On June 1 2001 I was high bidder on an Ebay dutch auction for some electronics equipment. This auction had 10 items for sale with 5 people bidding sucessfully on them. I payed $112 with paypal. When I got my items in the mail it was both not the model advertised and to top it off it didnt work. I contacted the other winners in the auction and everyone recieved broken merchandise. This auction was a scam. The seller never responded to any E-mails and has since been delisted from Ebay. I filled out a Buyer Complaint Form with Paypal on June 16 2001 Case #117593 . On July 19 2001 Paypal informed me "Because the item is not advertised or listed by our service, we are not in the position to verify the quality of an item delivered as opposed to what was advertised." So they cannot help me. In a case where an auction is clearly a fraud, every bidder in this auction got merchandise that did not function, Paypal should take the money out of this persons account and refund it. When I first filed this complaint Paypal took the money out of the sellers account and held onto it while looking into the case. Also for them to say "we are not in the position to verify the quality of an item delivered" in a dutch auction where everyone got ripped off is an insult. If they cant protect me in this instance who can they protect?
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roofguy
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posted on July 20, 2001 04:46:29 PM new
The PayPal rule regarding quality of merchandise has been unchanged for a long time.
Why did you think they would get involved in such an issue?
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ferrari52
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posted on July 20, 2001 04:54:36 PM new
"quality of merchandise rule?" He might as well have sent me a bag of rocks. So the rule is if you purchase something and they send out a box, Paypal then cant help you? I hope not.
[ edited by ferrari52 on Jul 20, 2001 04:55 PM ]
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roofguy
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posted on July 20, 2001 04:56:09 PM new
PayPal does not get involved in quality of merchandise disputes. Never has. Never.
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roofguy
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posted on July 20, 2001 04:59:06 PM new
So I'll ask again.
Why did you think PayPal would get involved in such a case? You can imagine the nightmare of trying to sort out who promised what and when, and how that matches what came.
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ferrari52
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posted on July 20, 2001 05:13:22 PM new
I can certainly appreciate your point if this was a normal auction. This however was a dutch auction with every person getting broken merchandise. Its not a matter of believing one person over the other. Its a matter of believing the croud over the seller.
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roofguy
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posted on July 20, 2001 05:20:22 PM new
Its a matter of believing the croud over the seller.
I submit that if you were the seller, you wouldn't see this the same.
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Retired2late
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posted on July 20, 2001 05:28:30 PM new
If you used a credit card to pay for this item, you would be protected under your right to initiate a chargeback. If you paid with a balance in your account, you're out of luck. I recommend people always use a credit card to make on line purchases. You are fully protected that way.
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vobistdu
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posted on July 22, 2001 09:29:07 AM new
Can't you get ebay's insurance policy to cover your loss (minus the $25 deductible)?
Or is theirs another of these great-on-paper, terrible-in-reality "services"?
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yisgood
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posted on July 22, 2001 10:35:13 AM new
>>PayPal does not get involved in quality of merchandise disputes. Never has. Never.<<
Except for the hundred posts here and more on ebay and otwa where PP did get involved and decided (based on what evidence, I wonder) that they buyer should get to keep the money and the merchandise. I am still waiting for Damon to explain how they decide who wins? A coin toss? Which party complained to the BBB?
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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roofguy
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posted on July 23, 2001 08:00:35 AM new
Except for the hundred posts here and more on ebay and otwa where PP did get involved and decided (based on what evidence, I wonder) that they buyer should get to keep the money and the merchandise.
Another vacuous reference.
Cite one, yisgood. One. If there's hundreds, that should be easy.
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roofguy
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posted on July 23, 2001 08:09:46 AM new
My only guess as to the reason why Yisgood would say what he said is the recently changed policy to not protect seller from quality of merchandise chargebacks BY CREDIT CARD COMPANIES.
In such cases, PayPal does not get involved, they only pass on the decision of a credit card company.
PayPal never has had any function to examine quality of merchandise disputes and make a decision as to who is right. That's hard and expensive to do, and no one wants to pay for it.
For a while PayPal generously paid, from its own pocket, in credit card chargeback cases involving quality of merchandise.
It's common in life these days that when a generosity is eventually withheld, the previous recipients turn on the giver who benefitted them.
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yisgood
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posted on July 23, 2001 08:17:24 AM new
I dont have time to repeat all my previous links for the benefit of the slow learners. here are just a few. There are dozens more on my site and links to dozens of others on other sites.
[url=href=http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=384185&id=384455]charge back after 16 months[url]
no seller protection on quality of goods
another one
seller with 576 positives and no negs
By the way, I will never say anything about Paypal that isn't true. It says so right in my TOU.
"I will never say anything about Paypal that isn't true."
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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vobistdu
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posted on July 23, 2001 08:48:07 AM new
roofguy:
I don't want to be the third dog in your "dialogue" with yizzy, but I do have a question for you:
You mentioned PP's "recent" policy change about chargebacks and quality of merchanidse. I just reread their policy s (even back into the archives) and didn't see anything about differentiating between which kinds of "excuses" could be used as justification for chargebacks.
The most recent policy change says:
"Notice Date: July 14, 2001
Effective Date: August 3, 2001
Effective August 3, 2001, to qualify for the Seller Protection Policy, sellers will need to respond to claims against them in the following time periods: When a complaint occurs, sellers need to provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, sellers must provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the e-mail message sent to the seller. Sellers who provide the required information within the appropriate time frame, and meet the other criteria of the Seller Protection Policy, will be protected from chargebacks resulting from a buyer's unauthorized use of a credit card or claims of non-shipment of goods (even if the credit card association resolves the dispute in favor of the buyer)."
I may have missed it, so I'd appreciate your expanding a bit on where you saw this huge "quality of merchandise" loophole in PP's seller protection policy against credit card chargebacks.
Thanks
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roofguy
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posted on July 23, 2001 09:03:28 AM new
I looked at your references, Yisgood, the links that worked. None of them suggest that PayPal was involved in a quality of merchandise dispute.
By the way, I will never say anything about Paypal that isn't true.
A poster reported "PayPal account locked", but later reports "sorry, I was mistaken, the account was never locked". You subsequently described this sequence as "a report of a locked PayPal account".
You tell me what you call such things, Yisgood.
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SaraAW
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posted on July 23, 2001 10:27:01 AM new
Everyone,
Please address the Topic of the thread, and refrain from making personal comments to each other.
Thank you,
Sara
[email protected]
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ferrari52
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posted on July 23, 2001 05:16:41 PM new
As I see it there are only 3 things I can do. I have filed a complaint with the BBB regarding paypals buyer protection program. Call me crazy but I dont think someone sending out empty boxes should be protected by paypal as they are now. I will file a claim with Ebays insurance. Finally I will post everywhere what people should do in a quality of merchandise dispute involving paypal. Immediately do a chargeback on your credit card. Dont even contact paypal.  Oh and if anyone can suggest anyone else to write feel free to share.
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paypaldamon
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posted on July 24, 2001 04:38:01 PM new
Hi ferrari52,
Our terms of use, as well as the information surrounding the Buyer Complaint Process, have been unchanged relative to merchandise quality. We have never covered merchandise disputes and I have not seen any payment service that does (unless a user uses an escrow service).
The items being purchased are listed on another venue and there is no way for us to verify the integrity of the items being offered. A buyer needs to use some discretion before sending money to another party.
Excessive chargebacks by a buyer can lead to removal from our system, as it is a possible indicator of buyer fraud.
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ferrari52
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posted on July 24, 2001 06:06:08 PM new
Trust me when everyone in a dutch auction gets broken misrepresented merchandise you can easily ascertain this fact. You can say that paypal chooses not to get involved in merchandise quality disputes, but dont tell me "there is no way for us to verify the integrity of the items being offered" because that would not be the truth.
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