grumpyebayer
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posted on October 20, 2001 12:19:07 PM new
As many of you know I have had some problems with paypal that they have not corrected.
All info is in the following thread.
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=47&thread=3817&id=3817
They sent me yet another debit card. I have not activated it. Guess what? On september 22nd, THEY ALLOWED AOL TO CHARGE ME AGAIN!!!!
This is incredible. They are now allowing charges to go through on a card that has not been activated and is replacement for the previous card that they allowed the same thing to happen to.
I am beginning to wonder if AOL and paypal have some sort of a deal.
How can AOL keep making charges to my debit account when they DO NOT have my new credit card numbers? This is the 2nd card they have pulled this on.
On Tuesday, I am consulting an attorney to see what legal remedies are available to me. They have violated the FTC and I am sure Mastercard is going to have a fit.
I have tried to be patient but this takes the cake.
The oddest thing is have logged in several times since they sent me the new card and I did not see any new charges.
This is dated sept 22nd, but it was definately not in my inbox until yesterday.
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bburd51
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posted on October 20, 2001 01:38:34 PM new
grumpyebayer,
To be honest with you, I CAN NOT BELIEVE ANY THING PAYPAL DOES. Nothing they do makes any sense to me.
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Algernon
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posted on October 20, 2001 06:07:20 PM new
>>How can AOL keep making charges to my debit account when they DO NOT have my new credit card numbers?<<
Let me know when you find out. AOL has been billing my General Motors credit card (MasterCard) for 3 months now and it is a new card that I never entered into AOL's information.
My credit card expired and AOL is still able to bill the newly issued card without me ever having entered any information into AOL.
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 20, 2001 08:06:19 PM new
The most incredible thing is each card that Paypal has issued me is that, they have all had different numbers and expirations.
Why is AOL being allowed to do this? It reeks of credit card fraud. It also makes me wonder about the security of paypal. I am sure potential investors would love to know this before they buy stock.
This is honestly the strangest thing I have ever had to deal with involving credit or debit cards. No card company allows a customer to be charged again unless the merchant has the new card number and expiration. No one has ever gotten that info from me. The new card is still in the unopened envelope.
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Algernon
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posted on October 20, 2001 10:17:11 PM new
>>Why is AOL being allowed to do this?<<
If you'll contact me via my email [email protected] I'll share some info on who you may need to be contacting.
I'm in the same scenario, the three players in my unsubmitted billing info are AOL, MasterCard, and General Motors.
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 21, 2001 11:19:11 AM new
Thanks Algernon.
I have sent you an email.
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bburd51
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posted on October 22, 2001 07:54:26 PM new
grumpyebayer,
I had trouble with AOL at one time. They continued to charge my credit account after I had cancelled their service. I continued to contact AOL and finally was successful in getting all charges reversed. They would then charge for the next month. The key, was getting a conformation number that the account had been cancelled. After the difficulty I had with my PayPal account, I was forced to close my credit card account. So this last month after being charged and unable to reverse the charges, AOl sent me a check. Work your way up the AOL system--get a conformation number when your account is cancelled, and the names of the customer service person you talk to.
Customer service is everything. Those companies that do not respond to customers problems, do not have a chance in the business world. It is just a matter of time before they are gone. I am thankful that AOL was willing communicate with me and solve the problem.
[ edited by bburd51 on Oct 22, 2001 08:02 PM ]
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loggia
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posted on October 23, 2001 12:14:18 AM new
I noticed recently PayPal added a bunch of Electronic Fund Transfer Act language to their Terms of Use. I guess they're hoping by simply putting that in there it will somehow equal compliance with the Act.
Grumpy, I would email [email protected] and tell him about your story...
[ edited by loggia on Oct 23, 2001 12:16 AM ]
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 23, 2001 10:32:46 AM new
Hi grumpyebayer,
I have a question. Is the card number the same? If not, how would AOL be able to charge a card that you have not registered with them?
Secondly, if AOL is running the charge, and the card number is the same, would this not be an issue with AOL's billing system? Have you contacted AOL about their erroneous charges? Charges are only placed by attempts from other organizaions.
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chris30
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posted on October 23, 2001 12:07:53 PM new
Damon,
Actually. I had a similar problem with AOL a long time ago. I canceled the service. They kept billing. During that time my wallet was stolen. I was issued a new Visa. Guess what AOL was able to charge my visa (new #). My credit card company at the time told me that they simply were forcing the charge using the old authorization number and it was being transfered to my new card. It only took one phone call to resolve the problem.
If the card comes from Paypal don't you think that Paypal should be the ones contacting AOL about these charges? This customer of yours should have to spend an entire month waiting for your Company to react.
I'm glad I only used my paypal debit card once. We no longer keep funds in the account since there is clearly no protection!
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 23, 2001 04:31:12 PM new
One of the things that has made me grumpy is that I NEVER signed up for AOL. That is the insulting part. They are billing cards for an account that I never set up.
When I called them they asked for a screen name. I could not give them one since I did not open the account.
Paypal has done nothing, but send me a new card that AOL is billing.
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loggia
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posted on October 23, 2001 07:50:34 PM new
I have a question. Is the card number the same? If not, how would AOL be able to charge a card that you have not registered with them?
Whatever vendor is running your MasterCard system is either transferring the charge to the new account number or supplying it to AOL. Yes, some credit card/debit card systems do this for recurring charges. It's a "feature." 
Secondly, if AOL is running the charge, and the card number is the same, would this not be an issue with AOL's billing system?
LOL. I was going to post last night that next PayPal would blame AOL. Yes, it is an issue with AOL's billing system. One that under the law PayPal must take up with AOL.
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loggia
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posted on October 23, 2001 08:10:04 PM new
I think next PayPal is going to claim to have not received the proper documentation to investigate your dispute.
I hope you sent it delivery confirmation.
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 23, 2001 09:59:29 PM new
I have a question. Is the card number the same? If not, how would AOL be able to charge a card that you have not registered with them?
Secondly, if AOL is running the charge, and the card number is the same, would this not be an issue with AOL's billing system? Have you contacted AOL about their erroneous charges? Charges are only placed by attempts from other organizaions.
The numbers are not the same. Anyway, why would paypal send me cards with the same numbers as one that has been reported stolen? That would be pretty stupid.
Also as I mentioned above the card has never been activated. Why is a card that has never been activated or used being charged?
The problem is with paypal. Paypal has issued me a total of 3 cards. The last 2 were issued because of fraudulent charges on the previous card. Yet Paypal continues to allow the fraudulent charges to continue.
Hi Loggia,
I have an appointment with an attorney next month. A relative that is in the banking industry had never heard of anything like this. Especially the fact that the charges have not been reversed. She was also was surprised that Paypal has allowed more charges from AOL on a card that has not been activated or for that fact taken from the envelope. She suggested an attorney and gave me a whole slew of agencies to contact. She thinks it sounds like illegal banking and as you have pointed out a violation of the Electronic Fund Transfer Act. She gave me a number to talk to someone at Mastercard that would know how to handle this.
I spoke to my State's Attorney office. The lady I spoke to on the phone was very interested in AOL's role in the matter. She wanted to know how they were getting my new info to charge my card. She said that if I come in person they would be able to get more details to see how exactly to proceed if they are able. I plan to go in before I speak to the attorney.
edited due to grumpy italics.
[ edited by grumpyebayer on Oct 23, 2001 10:01 PM ]
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roofguy
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posted on October 23, 2001 10:26:31 PM new
I'm not sure it will help, grumpyebayer, but presumably what has happened is that your new numbers and your old number all refer to the same account. AOL is not charging the new number, they're charging the old one.
[ edited by roofguy on Oct 23, 2001 11:03 PM ]
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yisgood
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posted on October 24, 2001 10:39:38 AM new
>>but presumably what has happened is that your new numbers and your old number all refer to the same account. AOL is not charging the new number, they're charging the old one. <<
Exactly. This is what is supposed to happen when your old card expires and you are issued a new one. But when you CANCEL the card due to fraud, it is not supposed to roll over to the new one. Otherwise, what would be the point of getting the new one? The problem lies with whoever is handling the issuing of the Paypal cards.
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 24, 2001 08:56:54 PM new
The grand thing about this situation is that AOL is getting rich on Paypal's money.
The card had a $0 balance. Which means I had no money in my paypal account. They have allowed AOL to make nearly $120 in charges to an account that I will never put anymore money in or use again. If paypal does not reverse the charges they are the one that are losing money.
They are just giving away profits. Just think if this is only happening to 1000 of their many users. That is a decent amount of of lost profits.
You would think they would have a better system in place for stolen cards.
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pcpartsohio
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posted on October 24, 2001 09:03:54 PM new
Check out http://www.ygoodman.com/paypal.html. It has many complaints about Paypal. It also states that Paypal lost $70.6 million on $3.3 million in revenue last year, and $56.9 on $34.2 in revenue begining of this year. Looks like they loose more money then they make (if I read it correctly). So it does not look like they care too much about losses...
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loggia
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posted on October 24, 2001 09:57:29 PM new
If paypal does not reverse the charges they are the one that are losing money.
Perhaps. But you may lose out, too. Someday PayPal may sell its delinquent accounts to collection agencies.
And even though you never legitimately owed the money, the account may continue to show up that way. Another reason to compel PayPal to fix your account...
[ edited by loggia on Oct 24, 2001 10:05 PM ]
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kidsfeet
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posted on October 25, 2001 08:53:33 AM new
Paypaldamon:
You have COMPLETELY missed the point here.
Paypal is continuing to allow charges to go through on a DEBIT card that started out with a 0.00 balance, and is now in the NEGATIVE!@!!!!
Yes, AOL is doing something wrong. BUT, they would not be getting away with it if PAYPAL had never allowed the charges to begin with!!!
And, secondly, paypal has clearly mucked up the issuance of the new card. It is obviously still attached to the old account, even with different numbers.
I smell a lawsuit...........
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 25, 2001 02:31:26 PM new
I am not worried about a delinquent paypal account. They do not have my social security number.
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bburd51
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posted on October 25, 2001 02:43:14 PM new
grumpyebayer,
They may not have your social security number now, but I can tell you that if you file a fraud report with PayPal, they want it.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 25, 2001 04:05:28 PM new
Hi kidsfeet,
To the best of my knowledge, debit cards should not be charged if there is no balance in the PayPal account. The information about the previous issue was passed to our financial operations team, so I am a little curious as to what they advised the user.
I am also advising that there appears to be an issue with AOL (based on the user's comments) that they would also need to take up with them.
Debit cards are only charged if an attempt is made by an organization.
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kidsfeet
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posted on October 25, 2001 06:26:25 PM new
To the best of my knowledge, debit cards should not be charged if there is no balance in the PayPal account.
That is exactly the point. So WHY is paypal continuing to allow charges?
The old card was supposed to be canceled. A new card was issued. The new card is clearly linked to the old account, so that the old # is coming up with the new #.
WHY are they STILL allowing fraudulent charges on a negative balance account (negative due to Paypal's ALLOWING charges)???!!!
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loggia
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posted on October 25, 2001 08:40:28 PM new
I am also advising that there appears to be an issue with AOL (based on the user's comments) that they would also need to take up with them.
You're well aware that a dispute filed under EFTA would be investigated by PayPal, not the consumer.
The information about the previous issue was passed to our financial operations team, so I am a little curious as to what they advised the user.
You're well aware they did not answer.
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club1man
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posted on October 26, 2001 12:11:55 PM new
hey grumpy
Email me your lawyers addy and phone # and I will pass it along to my attorney's so they can help one another. I am already involved in a suit with paypal and we have alot of reasearch on california law.I think the more legal minds that get together the easier it will be.
e-mail me [email protected]
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 30, 2001 04:28:56 AM new
The plot thickens...October 23rd another AOL charge.
I am also advising that there appears to be an issue with AOL (based on the user's comments) that they would also need to take up with them.
As I am sure you know AOL does most of its cutomer service based on screen name. If do not have the screen aname that is using the card they can not look up the account. As one AOL rep said yesterday:
"If your card was stolen, your company would not allow us or anyone to continue billing. Are you sure you did not sign up and just forget your screen name, it happens. Without the screen anme there isn't much I can do. My suggestion is, you contact your credit card company immediately and let them know the card has been stolen. They can investigate the charges and issue you a credit if the charges are fraudulent. Is there anything else I can help you with?"
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loggia
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posted on October 30, 2001 08:46:12 AM new
loggia posted on October 27, 2001 04:18:32 PM
but I can make sure the case is reviewed
Like you did for Grumpy?
paypaldamon posted on October 27, 2001 04:28:27 PM
Hi loggia,
Yes, like I did for grumpy. All cases are forwarded to the appropriate department. The user should have been in direct contact with a representative concerning their case. As I have stated before, I do not handle the outcome of cases that come my way and I am here to make sure there is follow-up if there was none.
Damon, it looks like Grumpy is still waiting.
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grumpyebayer
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posted on October 31, 2001 05:44:59 PM new
No one has contacted me Damon. I have filled out the fraud form. I have done everything asked. I even included a toll free number for some one to call me back on.
Nothing has been done.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 31, 2001 05:47:31 PM new
Hi grumpyebayer,
Can you please send me the account email address to [email protected]? I need to find out who is working this.
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