posted on January 3, 2002 11:18:51 PM new
Damon, perhaps you can explain this one to me.
Go look into the PayPal account under the e-mail address [email protected].
It's already received complaints from a minimum of at least four people, including myself. (A few of us taken in the same auction have been in contact with each other.)
Of the four of us, I was the only one stupid enough to pay with my checking account, instead of a credit card. (Which actually has fraud protection, unlike PayPal.)
In the usual (and *highly misleading*) PayPal response, the payment in question was labeled "This payment has been reversed." With the status "Pending" hiding in the details.
As I mentioned- I paid with cash. PayPal has gotten back with me already about a week ago, stating the blatantly obvious (the seller was at fault) and to kiss my money goodbye.
The three people that have paid with a credit card have still not yet been contacted, and still have that bold-red lie "This payment has been reversed" on their payments in question.
Now PayPal wouldn't be misleading these folk, would they? Knowing that most credit card payments can't be contested after 30 days- PayPal wouldn't be sitting on these accounts, just waiting for the users to loose their rights to filing claims, would it?
Really... I'd like to hear this. Why haven't the people that actually have a recourse in getting their funds back been informed?
[Edited for spelling corrections.]
[ edited by TMMamoru on Jan 3, 2002 11:46 PM ]
I think there is some misunderstanding about how the process works here.
A "pending reversal" simply alerts us to an issue with the payment to the seller. The recovery process (if money is available in the account AND the seller has not responded to the complaint) will occur at (or a little after 30 days).
For you, if money was recovered from the seller, the payment would be reversed. If no money was available, then the pending reversal would be canceled.
The payments via credit card work slightly differently. The credit card (if money is recovered from the account) is credited back to the card it was made from.
Users of credit cards are (traditionally) allowed 60 days to contest the charge with the credit card company. Our terms of use, however, do require that a buyer allow us to attempt recovery before it goes to a chargeback.
There are several items to possible recovery-
a) pending reversal-alerts us to an issue
b) reversed-returns funds to the buyer when money is recovered
c) canceled-when no money is available
All of the buyers that filed complaints will have to wait at least 30 days before they are notified.
posted on January 4, 2002 09:36:57 AM new
Damon, as I said originally, "This payment has been reversed" is highly misleading- and no doubt intentionally so. If my payment had actually been reversed, I wouldn't be here, and my money would be back in my wallet.
PayPal may use this statement as a flag to mark accounts, but there are 100 different phrases you could use to do the same thing that don't intentionally mislead the customers into a false sense of security. "This payment is under investigation..." for example.
Honestly, this I could care less about. It's a minor issue. My original question remains quite well avoided, and unanswered:
*Why have the other buyers not been contacted?*
The fact that credit card payments are charged back to the issuing credit card is irrelevant. As for the fact that if no money is available, no payments can be reimbursed. We already know this- as it is the basis of this complaint!
PayPal's "investigation" is over. The account has been shown to be fraudulent, but there is no money in the account to claim. PayPal has already replied to my complaint giving me the "good news."
All auction payments all went to the same account. This account is empty now. Thus, all claims for recovery are SOL.
Now, I ask again- Why haven't the buyers who had paid by credit card been contacted? Why do their accounts still show "This payment has been reversed..." when we all know damn well that it's not, nor will it be?
Then you tell me that they should expect to wait another 30 days before they hear anything?
With that, do you honestly expect me to belive that PayPal is NOT sitting on their asses waiting for the grace period for contesting charges to tick by?
posted on January 4, 2002 10:39:49 AM new
Damon will never directly answer your questions. He will dance around the issue at hand. As for the other people involved, I would highly recommend they do chargebacks now before their time runs out. You already know this guy is a fraud. At least they will get their money back. I know exactly how you feel as the same thing happened to me. PayPal will do their best not to do anything in these cases. They protect fraudulent sellers. It has been posted here numerous times.
All auction payments all went to the same account. This account is empty now. Thus, all claims for recovery are SOL.
Now, I ask again- Why haven't the buyers who had paid by credit card been contacted? Why do their accounts still show "This payment has been reversed..." when we all know damn well that it's not, nor will it be?
Then you tell me that they should expect to wait another 30 days before they hear anything?
With that, do you honestly expect me to belive that PayPal is NOT sitting on their asses waiting for the grace period for contesting charges to tick by?
****Did the buyers file their claims after you? All claims filed take at least 30 days to notify after the filing.*****
I am not working with records, but I am telling you how the process works. They will be notified when their claim period is over.
Our Security Center also has tips on items that buyers should check prior to completing a transaction.
Fraud Prevention Tips For Buyers
While the vast majority of online transactions are completed without complication, fraud and dishonest sellers are a fact of Internet life. PayPal provides the guidelines below to help you decrease your risk of transacting with a fraudulent seller.
Check the Seller's Reputation
Use Extra Caution with High Value and Popular Items
Do Not Buy "Out of Auction" from a Different Seller
Be Wary of Items with Delayed Shipment
Confirm Authenticity
Ask Before You Buy
Check the Seller's Reputation
Most auction sites have forums where buyers can leave feedback on sellers' business practices, speed of shipment and general experiences. Use extra care in taking orders from new sellers.
Look for sellers with long histories of successful transactions who have a number of positive comments from other buyers.
See if the buyer is a Verified member of PayPal and has been a PayPal member for at least a couple of months. To check the status of a seller's PayPal membership, go to the "Send Money" tab and make a payment to the seller. On the "Check the details of your payment" page, the sellers reputation link (e.g. Verified Premier Member) will be displayed next to his email address. Clicking the link will give you further information about the status of his membership.
Use Extra Caution with High Value and Popular Items
Certain types of items (e.g. computers, jewelry, electronics, etc.) carry a higher fraud risk and require additional checking before completing the sale. These products include popular items that tend to be sold out in stores.
Be suspicious of deals that seem too good to be true. They usually are.
Be suspicious of sellers offering a very low price for a hard to find item and seem to have a large number of these same products.
If a seller is offering a number of the same items, ask to speak with the seller's supplier. Independently verify that the supplier is a legitimate business with the correct address and phone number through a telephone directory or by calling 411.
If you receive an unsolicited email from someone selling the same product that you recently bid on, be careful about buying the product. While the seller may be offering a lower price, fraudsters often use this tactic to get around the official controls and consumer protections auction sites provide members.
Be Wary of Items with Delayed Shipment
Exercise caution when purchasing items with a significantly delayed delivery time.
Confirm Authenticity
When buying collectables, such as sports memorabilia, please take steps to confirm that the item is authentic before purchasing.
Ask Before You Buy
If you have questions regarding an item, we encourage you to contact the seller before bidding. Sellers prefer that you ask questions before you buy, and good communication will make the transaction smoother for all involved. We are always available to assist you with suspicious transactions. If you have concerns about a transaction, Contact Us before you complete the sale.
posted on January 4, 2002 12:03:11 PM new
Hi TMMamoru,
Let's try a different approach...why don't you bullet your question? I am not being evasive about your question, but I don't believe you know how our systems work.
posted on January 4, 2002 01:34:07 PM new
I've heard things like this before, where PayPal puts a pending reversal, and since it is not as clear on the website/e-mail to what that means as it is in PayPalDamon's description, most people think that they are getting their money back, it just takes a little while for it to process. (If I didn't know what it really meant and I got a "pending reversal" I would have thought the same thing.) What I would do if I needed to file a buyer complaint is to file the buyer complaint and give PayPal as much time as possible to respond. If I paid by credit card, this would be the 59th day after the charge was on my credit card. If I didn't receive a response by then, I would file a dispute (after making sure my account was empty). If then later PayPal gave me the money through the buyer complaint process, I would just return it to the seller or whoever PayPal wanted me to return it to (assuming the chargeback went through when I disputed it with my credit card company).
posted on January 4, 2002 03:47:35 PM new
Yeah but the buyer that paid with paypal cash already has the bad news. The buyers that paid with payal through credit cards have had no such news. If it's a done deal for the cash buyer why would it not be a done deal for the credit buyers?
dendude
posted on January 4, 2002 07:43:45 PM new
The cash buyer can not charge it back, therefore there is no reason for PayPal to make him wait before telling the buyer the result. The credit card buyer, however, has 60 days to do a chargeback with the credit card company. If PayPal puts one of these pending reversals on the buyers account, he thinks he will get his money back, and then PayPal waits until after the 60 days to tell the buyer the result, than PayPal won't be bothered with chargebacks (though in once case I read since the buyer showed the credit card company how PayPal was just delaying they let the chargeback go through after 60 days). I'm not saying I know PayPal is just delaying here, I am just stating the fact that buyers have 60 days and PayPal sometimes alerts credit card buyers to the result after the 60 days, even if the buyer complaint was made over 31 days ago. It could also be, as PayPalDamon said, that the credit card buyers filed a buyer complaint well after the other buyer who used their bank account or paypal funds.
posted on January 9, 2002 09:53:44 AM new
I made my complaint on Dec 18th. By the 29th, I already had a reply stating that the seller was indeed a fraud, no money was to be recovered, "investigation" over.
Another buyer's complaint was filed on Dec 20th. The others would have filed in similar time, I'd imagine, on my reccomendation. There is STILL no reply from PayPal to ANY of these buyers.
I paid with cash. They paid with CC.
I have no recourse. They do.
I've been told. They have not.
It is the same account in question. PayPal already knows the answer to this "investigation" in regards to ALL of the buyers. Continuing to wait is nothing more than a stall tactic to minimize the number of potential user disputes with their credit card companies.
posted on January 9, 2002 02:17:03 PM new
Thats the truth, plain and simple. PayPal knows that if they delay long enough then maybe the plaintiff's credit card company can't chargeback the sale. If the buyers chargeback now, PayPal will actually have to go after the deadbeat seller for restitution which they will most likely not get. PayPal, in this case is no better than the scammer in regards to their members.
posted on January 16, 2002 08:33:00 AM new
Yahoo has had the courtesy to at least keep in regular contact. Even received an e-mail letting me know that they'd received the claim I'd filed via snail mail.
posted on January 16, 2002 11:40:30 AM new
I have an idea. How about we classify ourselves as Paypalologist. Really ... Then we could call upon ourselves to testify in court cases.
posted on January 16, 2002 12:38:18 PM new
PayPal wouldn't want me testifying in any court with them. I would treat their case about the same way they treated mine. I would take the fraudulent persons side just like PayPal did.
posted on January 16, 2002 12:40:33 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
You have been advised that you need to take some action against this party if you have been defrauded. You are the only person that is accusing this party of fraud, which has to be shown in a court of law.
I could accuse you of being fraudulent. It doesn't hold any water unless I take legal action against you, which would mean going through a legal process to find you guilty.
posted on January 16, 2002 04:48:00 PM newA "pending reversal" simply alerts us to an issue with the payment to the seller. The recovery process (if money is available in the account AND the seller has not responded to the complaint) will occur at (or a little after 30 days).
This is completely untrue and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying it.
Today I learned that PayPal has placed a pending reversal on $500 of my money TWO DAYS after the transaction was comleted. TWO DAYS!
PayPal has been given proof that the transaction was completed, yet they did a reversal on the transaction KNOWING that the seller perpetrated a fraud. They DID NOT require the buyer to go through the process of initiating a chargeback. They just placed the reversal on the account.
The buyer has a PayPal account in good standing even though PayPal has rock-solid proof of fraud.
posted on January 16, 2002 08:52:37 PM new
Damon,
You said: You are the only person that is accusing this party of fraud.
That is an outright LIE and you know it. There happen to be 10 other people besides myself who are accusing this same person of fraud. The person who stole money from all 11 of us has successfully exploited PayPal's many loopholes to do this. How many people have to be scammed by this person before PayPal will do anything about it? I assume that PayPal will just let this guy cost them more members because they let this kind of thing keep happening. Every time you let someone like this steal from your members and don't do anything about it, your going to lose them just like you lost me. But I guess the $20,000 worth of business that I did while a member was just small change and PayPal can afford to lose people like me. How much money did you make off the fraudulent seller that you are protecting, $100, $200? I hope you're happy with him because I will never do business with you ever again.
posted on January 16, 2002 09:07:54 PM new
The misunderstanding is you'll get your money back. It's just a fact that when it comes to paypal your SOL (sh*t outa luck)They got it and their gonna keep it.
posted on January 16, 2002 10:25:01 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
The only thing we can verify is that the seller has not followed the Seller Protection Policy. You are claiming that you were defrauded, and you have been advised that you need to take certain steps to go after the party.
Hi mrbusinessman,
You have not given me your email address to advise as to what the issue is (Buyer Complaint or chargeback). The pending reversal is placed against the PayPal account, which does not mean that recovery is going to occur against the bank account on file.
posted on January 17, 2002 08:43:15 AM newYou have not given me your email address to advise as to what the issue is (Buyer Complaint or chargeback).
PayPal has a customer service department. They have all of the info that's required in order to do what's right here. I have been in contact with them from day one and supplied concrete proof of my case.
As happens here so often, you're attempting to work with me to resolve the issue FROM A PUBLIC RELATIONS standpoint. Sorry, it won't happen. If PayPal's regular customer service department refuses to use good judgement and fairness in its decision making, I won't allow a "damage control" rep (no personal disrespect to you intended) to sweep this issue under the rug. I have no further desire to use your company's services (they have completely lost my trust) and an overwhelming desire to get this story out to the masses. Damage control won't work this time. PayPal has screwed the wrong guy.
posted on January 17, 2002 09:59:14 AM new
I know my case is a litte differnet than most. The times that I had charge backs though I can honestly say the customer got the better of me. You live...you learn. I didn't gripe about it because I didn't have time to. I do volume, working on small magins. I did 50 K worth of business in the first few month of last year on my Paypal Account. I know it doesn't mean much to Paypal but let me assure you that every customer who asks about using Paypal now is informed that we do not use their service because of Unreliability and lack of Federal Banking Regulations. -Joe-
posted on January 17, 2002 10:03:26 AM new
Yeah, I've been told what we need to do. We need to bring a lawsuit up against PayPal just to get information released relevant to the case.
Since PayPal is completely unwilling to do anything to stop fraudulent sellers themselves, it's up to Scooby and the Gang.(and why would they? They still get their percentage fees off the top...)
Oregon Police have aleady ran and check on the names and phone number we provided, and said they came up blank. "Julian" donna' exist. The only valid information that we have to work with is the bank account that was VERIFIED by PayPal.
PayPal will have no problems giving up this information, once we've finished going through all the legal hoops, right...?
I suppose it's a good thing that an attorney is among the list of people who got screwed in this deal. There is at least someone who knows what our options are, who's willing to answer questions.
posted on January 17, 2002 10:07:25 AM new
I wouldn't even trust PayPal if they were regulated. They would be like the fraudulent members they protect, finding ways around the rules. How many people can one company screw over? My god, this forum is full of people with nothing but problems with PayPal. They can't do anything right?
