posted on April 4, 2001 10:17:56 PM new
I keep getting unwanted emails from Paypal stating that I have cash. I reply with my address and tell them to send it to me. But they don't, they just keep sending me reminder emails. When I reply to them they tell me I don't have an open account.
I KNOW THAT.
But if they have my cash, they should send it to me.
Are they making money off the float of this and everyone else's money they are holding? You betcha!
If you have money for me and want to send it to me, then do so. I have sent you my address. If not, then I want you to stop emailing me. If you continue to email me then it is SPAM, as I have now told you to stop.
replaced "asked" with "now told"
[ edited by jimhhow on Apr 4, 2001 10:20 PM ]
posted on April 4, 2001 11:43:06 PM new
Hi jimhhow,
Sorry to hear of your issues. I can sympathize with your frustration, but these emails are not coming from PayPal without a user initiating a transaction.
PayPal would not email you unless a user of our service, that could be a customer/bidder of yours, tried to send you a payment for an item or service.
This money does not belong to you and is still the property of the sender (unless you claim it). The email is only generated by a user logging in on their account and directing a payment to your email address. The sender can reverse the payment if you do not claim it (much as a sent check is their property until you deposit it into their bank account).
These emails are the result of a buyer/bidder trying to send you a payment and an it is an item we honestly have no control over. I can recommend, however, that you state it in your EOA notices to limit the probability that someone is going to try and send you payment through a method you do not wish to accept.
Thank you for your comments and I do apologize for your issues with individuals.
posted on April 5, 2001 12:29:30 PM new
Okay Damon, seriously, the problem is this.
*1 Paypal wiil not send me the money unless I open an account with them.
*2 In order to open an account, I have to give them my credit card, and/or access to my bank to prove my address to them.
*3 I can also take the route of waiting weeks by sending them copies of my utility bills, or faxing them, and then wait for them to decide that proves my address.
But let's be fair about this, Okay, I will open an account and provide them what they provide me. If they want my credit card to prove my address, let me have Paypal's corporate credit card # to prove their address.
If they want my bank account information and access, let me have the same information from them.
I know that you will paint this post in a ridiculous light, but I think it is just as fair for them to be as open with their customers as they want us to be with them.
You may claim that Paypal has the track record to prove their honesty and trustworthyness. Okay, give us the same info that Paypal is saying it needs to verify from us.
posted on April 5, 2001 02:16:11 PM new
Hi jimhhow,
*1 Paypal wiil not send me the money unless I open an account with them.
(Correct. We have an account-based system that requires active members to send and receive payments)
*2 In order to open an account, I have to give them my credit card, and/or access to my bank to prove my address to them.
(Correct. This information is to validate the identity of the party and to deter fraud. This information is encrypted and none of the sensitive information (account numbers,etc) is transmitted during a transaction, which is why so many buyers like to use the service)
*3 I can also take the route of waiting weeks by sending them copies of my utility bills, or faxing them, and then wait for them to decide that proves my address.
(Correct. This is an option for users that don't want to keep information on file)
posted on April 5, 2001 04:23:27 PM newOkay, I will open an account and provide them what they provide me. If they want my credit card to prove my address, let me have Paypal's corporate credit card # to prove their address.
Let me know if it works. EBay required my credit card info on one ID just so I could register. I never thought they were required to give me their corporate credit card # in return. Do many companies on planet earth exchange CC#s with customers?
How else would you suggest they verify their identity and address? I don't want an account with them. They are sending me an email that I have CASH. I am not asking them to go get cash for me from someone.
To tell you the truth, I was okay with Paypal until they start trying harder and harder to get access to my bank account.
That and when they decided that the recipient was going to be charged back for any credit card fraud that they allow to be passed.
How can they hold the recipient responsible for their inability to verify something when they have the access to the credit card numbers, not the recipient?
I would even put up with their charges, although when I signed up THEIR STATEMENT WAS THAT THEY WOULD ALWAYS BE FREE.
What they do is illegal!
first of all, they accept transfers of cash for people who do not have accounts with them. Then they try to get access to those folks accouints by trying to twist their arms to get them to open an account. and if they don't, after 30 days they send the money back to the sender. Meanwhile, they are getting the interest from the float.
That is interest on money that they had no right to hold to begin with.
Then if you do open an account, it is not only subject to their rules, but any changes they want to make, and they do not have to tell you about any changes. What are you supposed to do, reread the TOS every day? That is ridiculous.
Now, THEY have the software, THEY have the technology, THEY have all of the information from the credit card user. BUT, IF they tell you that everything is ok to send the item, and it turns out THEY were wrong, THEY want to hold Y O U responsible for the loss.
AND oh yes, THEY are goimg to charge Y O U
a fee for this service.
I removed a paragraph that provided an analogy that some may not have cared for. Instead I will add:
Uaru, why should it mean anything to me because you never thought of it?
[ edited by jimhhow on Apr 5, 2001 04:54 PM ]
posted on April 5, 2001 04:57:43 PM new
Hi jimhhow,
This is possibly where the issue is and I am going to reference your statement:
"first of all, they accept transfers of cash for people who do not have accounts with them."
---The money sent is at the request of the sender. This money is still theirs unless you claim it (by opening an account) and they can reverse the payment if it is not claimed. This money does not belong to you, but it is an attempt by the sender to settle the payment with you (such as sending you a check or money order---they can still cancel these items until you cash it).
The email is only the notification that a user is attempting to pay you.The actual transaction settles at the account level.
Another statement-
"That and when they decided that the recipient was going to be charged back for any credit card fraud that they allow to be passed."
---This is no different than any other payment service or even a merchant account. However, we offer protection from charge backs under the Seller Protection Program (please see my thread on charge backs within this forum).Accepting payments via credit card always carries some element of risk that the card was stolen and the charge back rights are guaranteed to consumers. Consumers like to use their cards for that reason.
We screen cards heavily, our identifiction measures are in place to deter fraud, and we have proprietary software to help identify it. Charge back rates using our service are exceptionally low because of these ite,s.
The fees are for using our service are quite modest compared to the rates you will often pay with other services. We also have many features you will not find with many services or merchant accounts (debit cards,money market,downloadable logs,etc)
Thanks for your comments, but I thought I would go more in-depth with your issues and explain why that money is not yours until you have an account.
posted on April 5, 2001 05:14:57 PM new
Damon, nevermind, I fixed the email thing so I don't ever have to hear from paypal again.
[ edited by jimhhow on Apr 5, 2001 05:33 PM ]
posted on April 6, 2001 07:34:11 PM new
How'd you get them to stop?
I also think it's annoying because paypal should not send email to you unless you have an account with them. Isn't that called spamming?
Also, it's not the same as the buyer emailing you saying they sent a check, it's paypal sending you junk email. They should tell the sender that the email address is invalid, but I guess that would be too honest for paypal to do...
posted on April 6, 2001 08:36:35 PM new
Gosh. Now you are all making me wonder. Do you suppose when PayPal emails someone not in their user database that they have to provide a simple "opt-out" as required in the spam law?
PayPal does not direct emails to non-members. However, individual users of the service that are making a payment to a non-user will generate an email at the request of the sender.
In order for an email to be delivered requires:
1. A member logs into their account.
2. Goes to send money
3. Send money request is input.
4. Transaction generates an email to notify the recipient that money is headed their way and gives them instructions on how to claim if they do not have an account (if they have an account, it is sent to tell them of the payment)
These emails are the result of an end user requesting a transaction directed to an email address input by the sender. These items are not directed unless someone logs in and requests a transaction.
posted on April 6, 2001 11:04:36 PM new
I don't think you understand that the recipient has nothing to do with the above. I'm not sure that the emails are initiated by users leaves PayPal without an obligation to provide a simple opt-out from such emails.
posted on April 6, 2001 11:26:45 PM new
hi loggia,
I do understand where the possible frustration could be, I have also explained why these items occur. If a user is not a member of our service, there is no way to opt-out like you are mentioning.
It may sound callous, which is not the intent, but the only reason an email is generated is an individual user is trying to send payment for an item.
EOA notices typically take care of this, but I use this illustration---
Your auctions states that you take money orders only. The winning bidder, against your listing information, sends you a check.
Do you:
a) Contact the sender and advise them to send a different payment method?
b) Accept the payment and complete the transaction?
This transaction is an exchaneg between the sender and the recipient and we take no action unless a user instructs us to do so. We are the instrument of payment delivery only, just as the post office could be considered an agent of mail delivery to the address specified by the sender. This action requires input by the sender to trigger delivery of any message or payment.
The only novel way I have heard of getting around this---users filtering emails from PayPal.com in their mailbox and ignoring the email.
Many buyers use PayPal because it is convenient for them and they don't have to write a check or go get a money order.The transaction occurs quicker and there is a less likely wait for the buyer to receive the goods from the date of auction close. The payment is immediate and the funds are good (the potential for charge backs has been explained and users can be protected from them), which should drastically reduce the concern on the seller's end of receiving the inconvenience of a bounced check (or other).
Thanks for your feedback. I hoped I've explained why the action occurs.
posted on April 7, 2001 07:17:20 AM new
What I did was to go into my email controls, and found that I could set it to refuse email from a selected domain. So I set it to refuse email from paypal.com
BTW, My auction terms and EOA emails both state that I do not accept paypal.
I still get some people ask me after the fact if I do or will. But very few. and since last August, I have only had one person refuse to do business because of it.
And the real reason turned out ot be that they were unable to get an online money order service to work properly for them.
posted on April 7, 2001 07:06:10 PM new
There is a problem with Damon's example of someone sending a check when a person accepts only money orders. The post office has no idea who accepts check or who accepts money orders. Paypal knows exactly who accepts paypal, and therefore, allowing users to send paypal email to someone they know is not a user would most likely be considered spam. I'm not completely sure, but if it is, this could mean a lawsuit for paypal...like they need anymore than they have already...
posted on April 7, 2001 07:41:41 PM new
Thank you Ben. You see my point. The responses I have received on these boards are the same solution that paypal has for most concerns.
( The following are not verbatim quotes. they are my interpretation of paypal responses.)
"The email is initiated by the sender, ....not us"
"the customer charged the credit card back, ....not us"
"The problem occurred becuase the user pressed the wrong confusing buttons, ....not us"
"The problem is with international customs and delivery systems, ...not us"
"you were sent something, or something was done for you because you neglected to follow all of the proper procedures to tell us not, ....not us"
"The credit card company says that you cannot pass the surcharges to the buyer, ...not us"
"Because we don't confirm and verify with the credit card company that a card # is being used by an authorized user before we accept, who is responsible if fraud is involved? ....not us"
"Who is responsible if the seller does not send the item after receiving payment and has closed their paypal account, or committed fraud? ....not us"
"If your account is frozen for any reason, who is going to tell your buyers that their payment cannot be accepted because you won't receive it? ...not us"
I think I have made this post long enough, I am sure that those of you who are going to get the point have gotten it.
typo, and adding
"whenever we decide to change the terms of service, who is going to tell you to read them again, ...NOT US!"
[ edited by jimhhow on Apr 7, 2001 07:44 PM ]
posted on April 7, 2001 08:17:21 PM newthis could mean a lawsuit for paypal
rrrrrright...
All you have to do is to convince your ISP that it's spam and they'll block PayPal's email. That might be tough since your ISP will probably understand that the payments are initiated by an individual customer. Your ISP might even be more reluctant to accept your view when they acknowledge that many of their own customers use a service whose web site is in the top 100 for hits each month.
But hey... you never know, go for it. If you are hiring a team of lawyers let me know. I'll might chip in a buck just to watch you spend your money. I can send that buck to you via Yahoo's PayDirect, CitiBank's C2it, Bank One's eMoneyMail, C/Base's eCount, or Western Union's MoneyZap... don't worry you don't have to be a member to receive their emails. Maybe you can sue all of them after you pummel PayPal, huh?
posted on April 7, 2001 08:35:07 PM new
Hi Damon, oh wait, I mean uaru,
I don't appreciate your posts which are almost always meant to make fun of the poster instead of responding to what they were trying to say. I obviously was just joking about suing, and I, and many other people, just want paypal (and any other company that does this) to go by the same rules as everyone else when it comes to allowing people to send spam email by having a way to opt out.
posted on April 7, 2001 08:54:41 PM new I obviously was just joking about suing, and I, and many other people, just want paypal (and any other company that does this) to go by the same rules as everyone else when it comes to allowing people to send spam email by having a way to opt out.
First we'd need to agree on what was spam and what isn't. Just because you didn't like the email doesn't make it spam. If I use eBay's system to send email to a seller or buyer I've sent the email but eBay relayed it. Does that make eBay guilty of spamming?
If I send you a virtual greeting card from one of hundreds of outfits that allow people to send them is the virtual greeting card outfit guilty of spamming you?
If a seller sends me an BillPoint invoice and I don't want it is BillPoint guilty of spamming me?
I think if you checked out the definition of "Spam" you'd find that a buyer sending a PayPal payment even when it wasn't a payment method in the seller's TOS isn't spam.
Unless it involves sending multiple copies of the same email to multiple email accounts you'll have an impossible time convincing any ISP or legal service it is spam.
posted on April 9, 2001 02:58:46 PM new
johncarillo,
I am on AOl, I searched around and found it in my email controls, which I found in my mail center. If you are on a different ISP for email they will probably be different. But I believe most of them will have some way for you to set it up to ignore email from specific users, or domains.
corrected a typo
[ edited by jimhhow on Apr 9, 2001 03:03 PM ]
