socrfan2
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posted on September 11, 2001 06:09:35 PM new
Several people asked how a plane could approach so close to the Pentagon. Actually, not that tough, until today, it was done roughly 40-50 times an hour during the day. During clear weather, airplanes take off and land up the Potomac River and pass within less than a mile of the Pentagon. The Air Florida plane that crashed into the 14th Street bridge back in Jan 82 was barely a mile from the Pentagon when it crashed. So a plane would be far less than a minute from the Pentagon when it veered off the flight path. And there are no air defenses that I know of at the Pentagon. Andrews AFB is ~20 miles away, and I'm not even sure there are fighter planes stationed there. The closest fighter planes to Washington may indeed be Patuxtent River NAS, which is probably 60-80 miles away. This doesn't explain how a plane gets so far off its flight path (that is, approaching the Washington area when it's not scheduled to be there) without anyone noticing, but if it did, approaching the Pentagon -- before today -- isn't that tough. I imagine that may change, and there may be a lot more restrictions on Washington air space in the future.
[ edited by socrfan2 on Sep 11, 2001 06:11 PM ]
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Microbes
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posted on September 11, 2001 06:17:33 PM new
>>"Kabul, Afghanistan, seems to be under attack by missile fire."<<
>They are saying it probably has to do with their civil war.<
If they are smart, someone in that country is going to deliver some heads to us.
I'm still numb. I'm glad about what Bush just said, "We will make no distintion between those who did this, and those who harbour them." Any country that won't hand us the heads of those responsable need to feel our wrath.
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hepburn
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posted on September 11, 2001 06:28:49 PM new
Im sorry if this sounds weird, but HOW THE HELL can someone HIGHJACK an airplane with a friggin knife? The scenario in my head is ludicrous. And FOUR planes, to boot.
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hepburn
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posted on September 11, 2001 06:33:23 PM new
I mean, come on. Some guy jumps up holding a knife and says "let me in the cockpit or Im gonna cut ya"? Personally, I would have said, "start cutting then, and make dam sure Im dead, because whether you kill me now or kill me once inside the cockpit, whats the difference?" and I would have screamed bloody murder. Maybe the crew and other passengers could have overpowered him/them. Then again, the scenario could be played out another way. Bullets can go thru the skin of the plane and cause damage. But a KNIFE? Whats he gonna do, slash his way in the cockpit? I think there is going to be some questions that will need some dam good answers on how a knife was allowed anyway, especially if it was BIG, otherwise, how could a "knife" be used to highjack FOUR planes?
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tegan
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posted on September 11, 2001 06:55:26 PM new
hepburn: People who had managed to call on cell phones aboard at least one of these flights reported that more than one of the stewards had been stabed. Once the blood starts flowing how you think you would or could react will be nothing like what you will do.
There are so many victims in this.
I'm bewildered and angry but having seen some horrific knife wounds I can assure you that the shock alone would imobilize the average person.
This whole thing was very well planned.Let's hope our governments response is just as well planned.
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outoftheblue
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:16:46 PM new
hepburn
I'm assuming the passengers and crew didn't have any idea what was going to happen so they probably didn't put up much of a fight.
I doubt that it would happen again though now that this has happened. If you are going to die anyway, at least you would have a fighting chance as an angry mob.
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gravid
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:20:59 PM new
I could make a knive out of lexan that would be undetectable going through security. It would cost about $3.00 unless I got the stock from the cut-offs bin for about 50¢. If it were 8 or 10 inches long with a serratted edge it would be most formidable. Take about 15 minutes on a band saw and a little file and grinder work.
I have been attacked with a knive and overcame the attacker unarmed - took his blade away and stood on the blade and broke it off.
I have a scar to this day however where he got me through the wrist. You have to be willing to get hurt and ruthless when you attack. I put a thumb in the fellows eye. Kicked his knee out from under him and once he was down I probably kicked him 50 or 60 times in both the ribs and head until I was SURE he was not getting back up. My ankle and foot were sore for a month from kicking him and I had heavy boots on. I did not try to take the knive until he was 10 foot away from it and not making any attempt to regain his feet anymore. It is not an easy task to ask anyone to undertake.
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zilvy
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:23:24 PM new
I really feel that the pilots must have been disabled, if they had a choice once they knew what the final intent was they would have turned away from the towers and taken their chances. It was mentioned that the two types of planes are operated in the same manner, designed that way to cut back on training requirements. It could also be that the terrorists actually flew the planes.
The one exception could be the plane that crashed outside of Pittsburgh. The pilot was able to resist and knowing what was in store chose where he would crash.
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gravid
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:26:32 PM new
At least one of the cell phone calls told that the flight crew was sent to the rear of the plane with all the passengers. That is the one that went down in PA. It way be the tail heavy plane with all the people pushed into the tail was too difficult to fly. You don't shift the load in a plabne like that and expect it to fly normal.
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mastiff1
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:30:29 PM new
They could have snuck vx gas on to disable the pilots-it would fit in a visine container. One squirt, and adios to the victim. Here is a link on the pilots  (didn't see it in the pages I read)
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8270
Lets bite them all to death. I go first because I have the biggest mouth.
WOOF!
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zilvy
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posted on September 11, 2001 07:40:10 PM new
I have my neighbor's Rotweiller at the ready and there is a really fiesty standary poodle (not just another pretty face) just down the street. Then we have the little doxy across the street, he could be counted on to unravel their socks and trip 'em up...you be the leader!
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outoftheblue
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posted on September 11, 2001 08:32:52 PM new
What a great Idea. Have an attack dog in the cabin of every plane. Somebody bursts into the cabin to hijack the plain and gets a face full of Rotweiler...
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hepburn
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posted on September 11, 2001 09:41:34 PM new
Gravid, I know your a bad dude and I respect you for it. However, there are bad chicks too. Someone waves a knife in my face and they better make sure they use it right and make dam sure I dont get up myself afterwards. I dont care if its on a plane, on the street, in my home. I cant honestly say what I would have done on that plane, but I guaranteedamwell wouldve put up a fight before I let ANY a$$hole get in the cockpit if I can help it. They wanna highjack? Fine. OUR pilot will fly them wherever. If THEY get hold of the controls, kiss your butt goodbye, and thats a given. Just like someone pulls up to you in their car, aims a gun and says "get in or I will shoot you". Who would actually get in and who would say "better start shooting, pal"? I would rather take my chances that I survive the shot/shots, then get in that dam car and be tortured and THEN killed.
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gaffan
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posted on September 11, 2001 09:49:52 PM new
Nobody knows how they will react in such a situation until they are actually in it.
-gaffan-
[email protected]
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hepburn
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posted on September 11, 2001 09:56:19 PM new
No, nobody does know how they will react in any given circumstances, but I have been in similar situations where I either did as told, otherwise possibly die. I chose to take my chances. Being in the air, with a nutcase wanting to get in the cockpit, I would take my chances and fight. Guaranteed.
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spazmodeus
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posted on September 11, 2001 10:23:18 PM new
Just stepped outside to get a look at what I thought would be the only starlit, planeless night sky I'm likely to see in my lifetime when into my field of vision came three peculiar aircraft -- a large one with lights in a triangular formation (never saw anything like this plane before), flying a meandering circular pattern, the other two were smaller and flying in a straight line. The large one made almost no sound at all -- I really had to strain to detect even the slightest rumble of an engine -- while the other two were completely silent.
Guess it must be the Air Force engaged in surveillance.
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uaru
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posted on September 11, 2001 10:33:43 PM new
No, nobody does know how they will react in any given circumstances
I don't think the scenario of a terrorist turning a passenger airliner into a Kamikaze has surfaced before. I'm guessing that airlines will operate very different as far as any possible access to the cockpit in the future. The news services seem to indicate that as many as 5 fanatics were involved in taking over of one plane. Rumors are so rampant it is hard to sift the stories from the facts. The world trade center is gone, that is a fact. Americans are going to demand revenge, I believe that can be accepted as a fact also.
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bunnicula
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posted on September 11, 2001 10:53:12 PM new
A news report just gave info garnered from the cell phone calls that folks on those aircraft were able to get out before their planes crashed.
The hijackers began killing stewardesses, using this to lure the pilots out of their cabins & overpower them. Reports of this came from all the planes.
A man calling from the plane that crashed outside of Pittsburgh said that "three of us are going to do something about it" before his phone went dead.
Callers from all the planes described knives that are now by called "something like boxcutters." Frankly, I can't see that a hijack would be successfull using *just* such weapons. Something else had to have been involved. One scenario that suggests itself to me would be for a hijacker to snatch up a child or woman in the cabin & threaten their life with the knife--which would probably make most pause in any fight they tried to put up.
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spazmodeus
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posted on September 11, 2001 11:08:02 PM new
CNN now has dramatic video footage clearly showing the first jet striking the side of the World Trade Center and cutting through it like a warm knife through butter. They also have footage of the second plane striking, shot from the side of impact. The plane entered like a bullet that goes in smoothly and blows everything out the exit wound.
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spazmodeus
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posted on September 11, 2001 11:12:14 PM new
bunnicula,
In one of the cell phone calls made by a passenger on the Pentagon-bound jet, the caller said the hijackers told passengers they had a bomb on board.
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bunnicula
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posted on September 11, 2001 11:18:47 PM new
That would work, too...
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MichelleG
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posted on September 12, 2001 01:19:02 AM new
I've been trying to put my feelings about this into words all day - almost 24 hrs later I'm still struggling. I can't recall the last time I saw a news story that made me physically nauseous. I can't even begin to imagine how gutwrenching this must be for many of you.
As a lot of you will know, I'm on the other side of the world in Australia. The news broke just before my shift ended last night and I've been awake ever since. Couldn't bring myself to go to bed and struggled to turn the TV off even though I knew I was going to see the same horrific footage over and over again.
I live in my State Capital - a thriving busy city. Today, when I finally ventured out, the streets and stores were virtually empty. Those people I did encounter were discussing the morning's tragedies in hushed tones. Regular television and radio programming was disgarded for all day coverage of the events in the U.S. The only vaguely local news angle was that our country's Prime Minister is stranded in Washington D.C.
My 8 year old daughter came home to tell me the school held a special assembly this morning to hold a minute's silence in remembrance of those lives lost and that the Australian Flag flew at half mast today.
I am so thankful that my U.S. family, friends and colleagues and their loved ones are safe. I've never been more glad that there is an ocean between us though.
This is a dark day for the entire world. My family's thoughts are with all of you.
Michelle
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slavien
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posted on September 12, 2001 01:44:53 AM new
"a large one with lights in a triangular formation (never saw anything like this plane before), flying a meandering circular pattern, the other two were smaller and flying in a straight line. The large one made almost no sound at all -- I really had to strain to detect even the slightest rumble of an engine -- while the other two were completely silent."
not usual ours attend to earth events some ours in the building must transformed prior discovery ours will report claimed sound no sound available homid is usual report source to extract cf
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gravid
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posted on September 12, 2001 02:05:52 AM new
Spaz - You just saw a frisbee. They have a sensor suite on one model that will count the change in your pocket as it passes over and tell if you have jock itch. There are a few other things you might see - or the Taliban might see soon also. The fast movers were to cover the fris as they are a little slow and a couple cost as much as the tax rebate. They don't usually need a lot of help because they have the radar cross section of a half a beer can.
Hepburn - You sound like my Mom. If someone waved a knive in her face expecting to cower her he would be wake up having it surgically removed from his posterior before he had figured out what the sweet lady was doing.
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renatelindsay
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posted on September 12, 2001 02:51:36 AM new
There is a thread on ebay Uk Round Table "AMERICA CAN WE HELP YOU".(Sorry don't know how to post direct link) If you need to contact anyone in the UK to let them know you are OK, then people from all over the UK are offering to help. They are posting their email addresses and will phone/write/visit to let your loved ones know you are OK.
I am in London and will do what I can to help.
My address is
[email protected].
Our thoughts and prayers are with you all
Renate
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nettak
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posted on September 12, 2001 02:59:12 AM new
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=418863
What a lovely caring thing for you to do Renate I guess you are like us here in Australia, just still in disbelief. It is still hard to believe what has happened almost 24 hours later. All our major TV stations are still having around the clock reports from America, none of our normal programs are being aired at all, we have a lot people from Australia in NY, they tell us that about 15,000 Aussies live in NYC and a lot are still unaccounted for.
When something of this magnitude occurs it shows us how we can all pull together as one world. We need to be united in ridding our world of this sort of scum and making this a safer place for all of us.
America stay strong.
[ edited by nettak on Sep 12, 2001 03:01 AM ]
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renatelindsay
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posted on September 12, 2001 03:08:29 AM new
Thanks nettak,
I think we all just feel helpless here. Whatever the political rights or wrongs this is a human tragedy on a grand scale.
At times like this, all the good people of the world show their strength and this sort of thing brings us together wherever we are. These misguided and totally evil people can't win if we all stand together.
Renate
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nettak
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posted on September 12, 2001 03:27:22 AM new
I agree with you Renate, we all need to stand up to these bully boys of the world and show that we are a united front and will not tolerate this type of atrocity. I think both of our countries leaders have said that they will back the US with whatever defense powers they may need to put a stop to this type of terrorism. All polictical parties are together on this and I personally think that is exactly how it should be....one united front for the world to see.
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Microbes
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posted on September 12, 2001 04:39:14 AM new
nettak: Thanks. I knew the minute this happend that Austraila, New Zealand, and the UK would step up support the US in this.
The Country Music channel was carrying BBC news yesterday. What will be interesting will be who else will support US. Now we find out who our friends really are.
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gravid
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posted on September 12, 2001 04:51:07 AM new
A few other countries have a direct stake in this in that their were companies in the world trade center from 26 countries, and I am sure many of their nationals are dead.
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