It's really simple for me. PayPal has been complained about because people thing they've been signed up for a PayPal account when someone sends them a payment and they aren't registered. Have you ever sent a payment to someone that doesn't have an account as a test? You do notice that you are given a dialog that the person doesn't have an account, right?
You stated earlier:
In the meantime, trusted companies are coming forward with better rates, better protection and well thought out policies. C2it is launching a very aggressive plan
Okay, so have you ever sent a test payment to someone with C2it that didn't have an account? Did you notice you are given no dialog what so ever that the person does or doesn't have an account, it just accepts the send and that's that.
So if one of PayPal's issues is because of sending to people without an account it would seem that C2it is equally, perhaps even more guilty in their practices.
I don't expect you to understand this, I don't expect you to argue that on it's point. I expect you to label my post as something from a 'paypal cheerleader' as though I haven't thought out my points.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:21:44 AM new
uaru: Ok, I have already said that I agree with you on that ONE point, that Paypal is no more guilty of this practice than any of the other services. Now find an excuse for the other 39 complaints made to the BBB each month about OTHER issues. While you're at it, you still haven't explained:
if this is the biggest complaint about Paypal and all the other services do this too, why don't they have a bad rating?
why hasn't paypal been able to explain this to the BBB in all these months?
Isn't the real problem not the number of complaints or the severity of complaints but the inacceptable length of time it takes Paypal to address the complaints?
Why don't you read the many posts of folks waiting months for paypal to explain their restriction of an account or payment?
Personally, I think Paypal has only one problem. They still haven't learned that it's easier to provide timely responses to your customers than to wait until they are so enraged that they post on public forums and complain to the BBB.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:55:14 AM newyisgoodif this is the biggest complaint about Paypal and all the other services do this too, why don't they have a bad rating?
Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with C2it? Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with eCount? Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with eMoneyMail?
I've got less negatives than eBay's top seller, did you know that? I confess I don't have the 36,000+ positive feedbacks that she has, and my volume in a year wouldn't match one week's of her volume, but I have less negative feedbacks than her.
By your logic that would make me the superior seller, right?
PayPal is generating 6,000,000 transactions a month. Maybe that has something to do with it.
posted on April 30, 2001 12:20:34 PM new
>>Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with C2it? Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with eCount? Has ANYONE ever asked to pay you with eMoneyMail?<<
Yes, as a matter of fact they have. I signed up for C2it last week because someone asked me to accept it. I think there will be more folks asking for it since they are now giving a $10 bonus when you make your first payment. And someone did ask me to use ecount a while ago. No one asked me to use emoneymail. But quite a few folks emailed me to ask what payments I would take other than paypal because they did not want to get burned again.
>>I've got less negatives than eBay's top seller... By your logic that would make me the superior seller, right? <<
Once again you ignore the issue. It is not the NUMBER of complaints the gives PP the bad rating. I'm sure there are more complaints made about any big company than small ones. But the local electronics store in my neighborhood has a bad rating with only three complaints while the megastore has a good rating with probably 10 or 20 complaints. Why? Because the BBB takes into account the size of the company and way they handled those complaints.
By YOUR logic, folks should always go to the bigger business (isn't Citibank bigger than paypal?) So why are you in business at all, since there are bigger sellers out there? Obviously, you also believe that folks should go to the BETTER business, not just the bigger one.
Why am I getting most of the PC business in my neighborhood instead of the megastore? Because folks know that I respond more quickly.
When sellers have to choose the service to use and to recommend to their customers, why should they choose the big company that doesn't respond when there are smaller companies that do?
Though Citibank is not exactly a little company. They entered the game late and took their time refining their procedures. Now they are making a big push and just might be able to give PP a run for their money. And there are other and possibly bigger companies about to launch as well. Paypal built themselves in little over a year with little competition. Let's see where they stand a year from now, particularly if they don't improve their customer service.
Apparently you take offense to being labeled a closet Paypal employee or company shill, yet you work tirelessly to give that impression. You basically lost me when you described why you like Paypal: “I like mavericks, I like trail blazers, I admire the little guy that can take an idea and make it function”. Paypal was a little guy! The list of published backers were by no means "little guys".
As for the BBB, they look for the number of complaints, whether there is a pattern, and if they respond to them. It sounds like Paypal would not fare well in any category.
Feel free to prove me wrong with an unrelated fact, one piece of information from a list, or a misdirected analogy.
posted on April 30, 2001 01:08:02 PM new
Damon, Damon, Damon-
My last posts to you, despite how you changed your phrasing or questions, were about the same issue:verification. To which, I responded accurately and honestly, but it wasn't the answer you were looking for.
I'm not saying that you didn't respond accurately and honestly. I am saying that your response was not relevant to my question. There is a difference.
An analogy:
Suppose I ask you which planet is the third from the sun, and you respond that the Earth has only one natural satellite. My question and your answer are both regarding the same issue- the Earth. Your answer is true, but it does not answer the question asked.
The reason for the changing of my phrasing was an attempt to put the question in a form that you might understand- clearly, I've failed in that endeavour.
And it is not a matter of being dissatisfied because I didn't get the answer I was looking for- it is because I didn't an the answer to the question I asked.
I am perfectly aware of the issue about which I was requesting information. You can continue in your belief that you have addressed the issue if you wish, but you will be mistaken should you do so.
posted on April 30, 2001 01:13:20 PM newApparently you take offense to being labeled a closet Paypal employee or company shill, yet you work tirelessly to give that impression.
Wouldn't you object if I pointed out that from your pattern of posts that were an employee of one of PayPal's many competitors?
posted on April 30, 2001 01:32:43 PM newyisgoodBy YOUR logic, folks should always go to the bigger business (isn't Citibank bigger than paypal?) So why are you in business at all, since there are bigger sellers out there? Obviously, you also believe that folks should go to the BETTER business, not just the bigger one.
I'm not sure what you are saying, but if you feel you can get better results from auctions on Bidville.com than eBay.com go for it. If you feel offering C2it will be more attractive to buyers than PayPal go for it.
Citibank is very large, C2it isn't. PayPal is very large, PayPal's partners combined assets are every bit as formidable as CitiBanks. I've had a C2it account since October when they mailed the bulk of AOL's members trying to get people to sign up. As one news story put it, C2it has floundered and offering a pay service where the buyer pays isn't going to be greeted with open arms by the buyers.
I seem to remember you touting GMCI's service because of GMCI's assets of billions and you posted you were recommending your customers to switch over to them. Remember that? Yes ExchangePath made a push, they advertised and they got some usage and they fell flat on their face. Of course now you only will dwell on how you thought they were a bad outfit now, but I remember and I'm sure I can find posts where you stated you were recommending to your buyers to switch over to them. Wanna bet I can find such posts?
posted on April 30, 2001 01:58:34 PM new
I do have my own agenda, however it has changed considerably since I discovered this forum researching Paypal. Now wouldn’t it be interesting if I did work for a competitor. Whether you are Damon’s alter ego, a stealth-employee, or just a fan; I really don’t care. If I wasn’t often amused by you posts, I would have filtered you out already.
As your posts approach the 2000 mark, do you champion any other causes or is it strictly Paypal?
posted on April 30, 2001 02:03:48 PM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
Let's try this---instead of a long post, please bullet your question(s). I will respond in short form to make sure that it is addressed in a YES/NO format and a little commentary if needed. Perhaps that will help us past our current communication problems.
posted on April 30, 2001 02:15:06 PM new
>>I'm not sure what you are saying, but if you feel you can get better results from auctions on Bidville.com than eBay.com go for it. If you feel offering C2it will be more attractive to buyers than PayPal go for it.<<
There is a big difference between listing at a ghost town and listing in a crowded market. By the time the buyer wants to pay, the deal has been made. I haven't found that buyers care which service they use as long as it is easy to use, fast and safe. The $10 bonus they get from C2it is just icing on the cake. By the way, I get far better auction results on a site other than ebay which also happens to be free. You can probably guess it isn't Bidville. And before their stupidity, I did much better on Yahoo than ebay. So again, bigger isnt always better.
>>Citibank is very large, C2it isn't. PayPal is very large, PayPal's partners combined assets are every bit as formidable as CitiBanks.<<
But Citibank is directly supporting C2it, leveraging their systems, their customer service, their fraud protection. Paypal is merely getting financing from their "partners," not support and definitely not customer service. Based on the foolish moves Paypal has made, it doesn't look like their "partners" are even giving them much advice. How many of their "partners" have bad ratings with the BBB?
>>As one news story put it, C2it has floundered and offering a pay service where the buyer pays isn't going to be greeted with open arms by the buyers. <<
C2it was working on getting all the details in place before making their major launch. Unlike Paypal, they don't want to promise what they can't deliver and change their terms when they change their socks. Now that they have revamped their service and added a $10 bonus (which unlike Paypal's referral fee, the users WILL get), let's see what happens. I really don't understand the second half of your sentence.
>>I seem to remember you touting GMCI's service because of GMCI's assets of billions and you posted you were recommending your customers to switch over to them. Remember that? Yes ExchangePath made a push, they advertised and they got some usage and they fell flat on their face. Of course now you only will dwell on how you thought they were a bad outfit now<<
FYI: It was CGMI. I touted their services because I spoke to them at length and they made all sorts of promises about what they were doing for fraud prevention and how they were not going to restrict accounts, etc. They underestimated the fraud problem and they lied. And as soon as I saw this, I warned people against them, months before they fell flat on their face. (and lots of folks accused me of being chicken little then. Was I wrong?) I didn't recommend them ONLY because CGMI was big. I mentioned that they were backed by a big company because folks were asking, "How do we know they're not just going to take our credit cards and run?"
Having spoke to C2it at length in a face-to-face meeting and numerous times by phone and email, I don't think we have to worry about them lying, not understanding the problems of fraud, restricting accounts, etc.
posted on April 30, 2001 03:28:53 PM new
Just to clarify, the BBB extrapolates from the number of complaints to get an impression of a company's performance. Most customers do not take the time to complain. And most complaints are filed only for more serious issues. So when PayPal says it is only a small number of complaints compared to their 7 million customers, it is like comparing apples and oranges.
Politicians do the same thing - if they get 1,000 letters about something they know that a lot of their constituients are unhappy. They do not say - hmm, only 1000 complaints and I have 7 million constituents! I'll just ignore those 1000 squeaky wheels*! No, no, no. They do not do that.
posted on April 30, 2001 03:36:51 PM new
Hi loggia,
We wouldn't have an executive working with the BBB if we didn't want to reduce the number of complaints (which have, by the reports I have access to, been reduced in half).
Many of the complaints had to do with customer service response times (rapidly improving) and some issues are out of our control, but we have been improving messaging where we can (buyer sent money to the wrong email address--as an example).
posted on May 5, 2001 06:54:34 PM new
As I've noted before, the BBB is an organization of businesses, for businesses, and you have to work very hard at getting an unsatisfactory record with them.
Being run by businesspeople, who get valid and invalid complaints themselves, the BBB is quite able to evaluate complaints, probably giving the benefit of the doubt to the business involved.
So if someone complains to the BBB that I sold them a book that was missing pages, all I have to do is send the customer a refund or replacement, with a carbon copy of the cover letter sent to the BBB, and the matter is resolved. I don't end up with an "unsatisfactory" rating.
If someone complains that the book cover was red, and they wanted blue, all I have to do is send them a copy of the auction listing where it said "red cover", with a copy to the BBB, and I don't end up with an unsatisfactory rating.
But if I tell the BBB that I don't know what happened, and the person who might know doesn't have a phone, and I'll get back to them whenever it d--m well pleases me (IOW, I treat them in the same way Paypal treats its customers), I'll be "unsatifactory" real quick.
So if the cheerleaders really believe that the BBB's problem is that non-members received "You've got cash!" e-mail, all Paypal had to do was explain to the recipient that (1) no account had been opened, (2) they were free to ignore the e-mail and ask the customer to pay another way, and cc: a copy to the BBB.
So, cheerleaders, if there is a distinction between Paypal and the other services on that point, it is probably on the customer service and communication end -- the other services provided it; Paypal didn't.
Yes ExchangePath made a push, they advertised and they got some usage and they fell flat on their face. Of course now you only will dwell on how you thought they were a bad outfit now, but I remember and I'm sure I can find posts where you stated you were recommending to your buyers to switch over to them. Wanna bet I can find such posts?