posted on May 8, 2002 10:44:57 AM new
The link between USA and Isreal is pretty simple and obvious....money the Isrealis are smart and control alot of $$$$ and have alot of behind the scene power in the USA.
Personally if my family had lived in a country for thousands of year I would defend my land...
KatyD what has defending land and the devistation of the WTC got to do with each other?
posted on May 8, 2002 10:50:26 AM new
Both sides need to ceasefire but I think it should be Israel to take the bold step forward and ceasefire first thus showing the Palestinians and the rest of the world that they are ready to talk peace.
Israel has the military might to completely obliterate the Palestinians and then some. Continuing to flex their military muscles will only cause a contination of the fighting. They are like a big bully on the block and the people they are picking on are fighting back. No one likes a bully.
posted on May 8, 2002 10:52:00 AM newPersonally if my family had lived in a country for thousands of year I would defend my land...
Actually, MrFoxy, Jews in Israel go back a couple of thousand years. I hate to get into that particular argument but....
KatyD what has defending land and the devistation of the WTC got to do with each other?
Suicide bombers who blow up innocent civilians in Israeli cities are not "defending their land" anymore than Al-Queda murdering thousands of our civilians in OUR cities are "defending their land". The key here, MrFoxy is Israeli cities, Israeli land It is not Palestine. There is no "Palestine", there never has been a "Palestine". Before it was "Israel" the area was under control of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, but NEVER "Palestine". Know your history.
posted on May 8, 2002 11:21:10 AM new
although it was under the control of these countries.
1125 BC : The Israelites, a confederation of Hebrew tribes, finally defeated the Canaanites but found the struggle with the Philistines more difficult . Philistines had established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled the Canaanite town of Jerusalem.
posted on May 8, 2002 11:55:39 AM new
"How do you figure that when the Palestinians have owned land and houses for generations. Should they be expected to just give up their land without a fight. Israel is kicking Palestinians off their lands without compensation to build new settlements for Jews"
After WWII a group of Polish Jews returned to Warsaw from Auschwitz.
They were hanged in the public square.
Imagine suriving Auschwitz? All you want to do is go home.
And you are hanged?
It's boggling and really happened.
Lands change hands all of the time. Just ask the North American Indians or Natives in Alaska? Or the Southern States or every country in Europe.
Like it or not, Arab states were created after WW1 by the British just like they turned the protecorate of Palestine into Israel after WWII.
People can argue the morals of all concerned parties until they are blue in the face.
All that will accomplish is more victims on both sides.
Eventually both will tire of killing each other and then the pieces will have to be picked up.
Until both parties are ready to face certain truths nothing will change.
Israel will fight for its survival with one hand tied behind its back, and the Palestinians will continue to be pawns in the Arab worlds attempts to eradicate Israel.
posted on May 8, 2002 12:08:57 PM new
Israel has won every war it has fought when attacked by its neighbors.
The difference is that Israel didn't "finish off" its enemies as is necessary to win a war.
Occupation is necessary AFTER you pummel the enemy into submission.
The US pummeled and occupied Japan and Germany. We haven't had a peep of trouble out of either one for decades. The US did the same to the Sourthern Rebel states in the Civl War, we pummeled them and occupied them.
Ethical or not we pummeled the native Americans and took their land and created one of the best nations in the history of mankind.
There will be no peace in the middle east until one side pummels the other into absolute submission.
Until that time, the US, Europe, and Israel will labor under a continious threat of terrorists attacks.
The longer it goes on, the more lethal these terrorist attacks will become.
It is only a question of how much death and destruction the US and Israel will accept from terrorists before the American people and those in Europe are forced to muster the political will to do what is necessary.
Sooner or later we will face the truth that terrorism is the result of leaving your wounded enemy alive to fight another day.
posted on May 8, 2002 03:13:47 PM new
<quote>
"I believe that anyone who defends the Palestinians in any way is either a terrorist, an idiot or an anti-semite who doesn't have the balls to say so."
<end quote>
Stusi
What a nasty statement that is! I have sympathy for the Palestinians and I am not a terrorist, an idiot or an anti-semite. I think that you owe an apology to the individual that you directed that remark to.
posted on May 8, 2002 03:26:51 PM new
Helen- If the shoe fits...."The individual" did not seem to be offended as much as you were. That is how I feel and no apology will be issued. I have sympathy for any innocent people. However, when you see the Palestinians cheering in the streets about acts of terrorism against the U.S. and Israel, they are no longer so innocent, are they?
posted on May 8, 2002 04:03:06 PM new
Who said anything about "innocent", stusi?
About the insult....Nobody with feelings could take such an insult lightly. How on earth do you presume to know how the person being insulted "took it" as you say.
posted on May 8, 2002 05:15:04 PM new
Helenjw- are you the self-appointed defender of these boards? Perhaps you take after Borillar who defends you. The point about innocence is that when someone uses the word sympathy regarding the Palestinians, either they are a PLO sympathizer(terrorist) or they are implying that they feel sympathy for the "innocent" civilians. Let's not again play semantics, Helen. I really don't care how someone takes my accusation-I stand behind it.
posted on May 8, 2002 05:39:06 PM new"Borillar- It is one thing to say it is preferable to have Arab support, it is quite another to say we must have it!"
Don't read between the lines, stusi - read the lines. My statements have been reflecting what *BUSH* wants, and that is arab nation cooperation. Me, I couldn't give a damn if he gets it or not, if he needs it or not. I didn't think we needed it during the Gulf War and I have no clue if we need the support now. I mean, even if every arab country in the world suddenly declared war on us, we'd have a lot of fun leisurely picking them off one-by-one. Why stop to beat up one troublemaker when you can trash them all? Hell, seeing as to what we did for Japan and Germany after WWII, its absolutely in their best intersts that we kick the living sh*t out of them and then bring them kicking and screaming into the modern world!
But, Bush wants to do what his Daddy did and that effort has been applauded by both the left and the right political/military analysts as doing the correct thing. So, I'm obviously not seeing the point to having the Arab League dictate America's sworn policy of destroying terrorists to us, but then, that's Bush for ya!
I really don't care how someone takes my accusation-I stand behind it.
<end quote>
stusi
I can take care of myself, stusi. I consider the source and ignore your baseless comments. But, in my opinion, you should consider the feelings of new people who don't know you as well as I do.
posted on May 8, 2002 05:42:56 PM new"Suicide bombers who blow up innocent civilians in Israeli cities are not "defending their land" anymore than Al-Queda murdering thousands of our civilians in OUR cities are "defending their land".
You're absolutely right, KadyD! I agree: we should go give the Palisentians tanks, and missles, and nuclear capability; plus 100 Billion dollars to spend like we did for Isreal, and give the troops training and weapons, and clothing and support -- just like we do and have done for Isreal. THEN, if they use suicide bombers after all that, well, then we'll ALL know who they are, won't we?
posted on May 8, 2002 06:38:07 PM new
Bor- The Palestinians had all the conventional equipment as well as at least 3 other Arab nations all attacking Israel at once with tanks, airplanes, armed ground forces.
Israel kicked all their butts and disarmed the Palestinian enemy setting cheek by jowl with them, just as we would have done to a defeated enemy.
If being defeated and no longer having arms is an excuse for killing civilians with terrorists attacks, then the only solution is for Israel to kill all Palestinians on sight, and Israel or the US or anybody else would be morally justified in killing any people or nation that insisted on terrorism after they had been defeated in a conventional war.
Your excuse for Palestinian terrorism as well as other terrorist acts leaves a nation under terrorist attack no choice but to pre-emptively exterminate those who support and carry out those terrorist attacks.
posted on May 8, 2002 06:43:24 PM newHow do you figure that when the Palestinians have owned land and houses for generations.
As I said, as much of a claim as anyone. You could go back a few thousand years when the Jews were slaves in Egypt. Does that mean they should continue to be slaves? The Jews have inhabited land in Palestine for thousands of years, except for periods when they were expelled. Should Rome pay reparations? Fact is, Israel exists now as a free democracy, and they have every right to defend themselves.
Much of what is now claimed to be Palestinian land was purchased outright from the Arabs. The rest was taken when all the surrounding nations declared war (not once but several times) and is held as a security measure for defense. If you are familiar with the terrain, you would see the natural defensible borders are the Golan Heights in the north, Jordan River in the east, and Negev desert in the south. All this land comes to about 1/3 the size of California. Militarily it makes no sense to give away land that encircles Jerusalem for a mere promise of peace from neighbors who have time and again declared war.
The link between USA and Isreal is pretty simple and obvious....money the Isrealis are smart and control alot of $$$$ and have alot of behind the scene power in the USA.
Pure anti-semitic propaganda. You apologize for one lie and then present another.
Hell, seeing as to what we did for Japan and Germany after WWII, its absolutely in their best intersts that we kick the living sh*t out of them and then bring them kicking and screaming into the modern world!
As blunt as that statement is, I agree with it. As long as the Arabs live in 12th century conditions, denied the "luxuries" we all enjoy, hatred for the West will never end. Don't expect oil-rich sheiks to voluntarily give up their power any time soon. IMO opinion, they're all just Saddam Hussein by a different name. Only difference is, some are better liars.
posted on May 8, 2002 07:04:54 PM new
Hjw- if you were truly "ignoring my baseless comments" we wouldn't be having these discussions, would we? BTW- I didn't know you knew me so well! The truth is that I have, after many years, become more supportive of the death penalty. I just don't have much tolerance anymore for murderers, terrorists etc.
posted on May 8, 2002 07:18:50 PM new
All this talk about who has claim to the land that has switched hands so many times is meaningless.
What matters is who has the power to take it and hold it.
I sure don't see the Palestinians taking it or holding it.
The Palestinians and all the Arab states helping them?
They might take it but by the time they did it would be at a cost - and in a condition that would make it not worth holding.
This time I think total war on Israel would make the previous wars look like an ice cream social. I see 3 or 4 million military casualties and most of the Arab capitals gone with another 8 to 10 million civilians and a good half of the weralth of those nations.
posted on May 8, 2002 07:50:50 PM new
Grav- I agree that the full confrontation would be horrific with the Arabs coming out by far the worse.
The only saving grace is that democracies are hesitant to move to an all out conflagration.
However, the west is faced with the real possibility that these backward despotic terrorist countries will at some point have weapons of mass destruction and the ability to deliver them.
Waiting for them to develope and use them is not an option. Waiting for them to commit other terrorist attacks is not an option.
I said this 9-12-01 and was accused of promoting "genocide"; but the fact still remains and I still believe that we must carry the death and destruction to these nations and peoples both to pre-empt an attack on The US and to pummel them into the ground to re-build them just as we did to Japan, Germany, and the Southern US.
Playing a cat and mouse game with Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and the PLO et al holds grave danger for every man, woman and child in the US the longer we put off what must be done.
Ending these childish cultures that promote and demand death and destruction to anyone that may offend one's "dignity" is an absolute must before it's too late.
Along those lines, I think the armed invaision of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (sp?) by muslims is interesting. NOTE THIS- Not one christian rioted, marched in the streets, suicide bombed, or murdered anyone over this. I know of no christian minister, priest etc that shouted from the pulpit to kill the muslims for this "desicration". Yet the PLO went on a killing spree when Sharon approached the Dome of the Rock.
We're dealing with a muslim culture ruled by a destitute, ugly and bankrupt religion. If these folks ever get the upper hand, they will kill and enslave us all.
posted on May 8, 2002 10:48:25 PM new"Bor- The Palestinians had all the conventional equipment as well as at least 3 other Arab nations all attacking Israel at once with tanks, airplanes, armed ground forces. "
"Israel kicked all their butts and disarmed the Palestinian enemy setting cheek by jowl with them, just as we would have done to a defeated enemy."
REAMOND, your thoughts on this would have a lot more impact if America hadn't been helping out the Israelis then. Although we supplied no overt aid, we did supply covert aid: intelligence, AWACS, spy satellite data, that sort of thing.
The Arab nations had ancient airplanes, a few old jet fighters, and some WWII armor, etc.
Today, those odds are drastically changed. Most Americans may not realize it, but the Arabs learned a very good lesson back then. Since then, they've traded oil for weapons of all sorts and are as sophisticated today as Americans are. Hell, our "Arab enemies"; such as Sadaam are very well equipped with the most modern conventional weapons.
As for the Palestinians, who have nothing to fight with but rocks, bombs, and some handguns, I'll feel much sorrier for Israel when both sides are militarily equal.
posted on May 9, 2002 09:05:10 AM new
Bor- All the things you claim we supplied to Israel didn't exist in 1967.
Israel also had WWII era weapons in 1967. Israel won that war through shear "balls" and a degree of tank warfare tactics not seen since Rommel. The US had a spy ship in the area and it was attacked by Israel. Egypt had superior armor and was superior in numbers, and Egypt's air force was also superior, but Israel destroyed it on the ground. These figures don't include the Syrian and Jordanian forces. Israel was out numbered and out gunned on every front.
Israel now produces its own tanks. We sell Israel stripped down versions of aircraft and they re-fit them.
If terrorism is permitted because a people lack superior arms for a conventional conflict, then occupation is justified, and the Palestinians should not have their own nation or government.
posted on May 9, 2002 09:57:35 AM new
"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria." - Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937
"Palestine was part of the Province of Syria... politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." - The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted this in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." - Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, to the UN Security Council
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." - Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children--all this in the service of political purposes...." - Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war
"Palestine has never existed... as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture.... There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.... Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.... Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today.... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough." - from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily.Com, 11 October 2000
Binyamin Bin-Eliezer (07/02): "The choice that is always before me as defence minister is either to be humane and open [the passageways for the Palestinians] and in the evening bury 20 Israeli children in the cemetery, or to say 'I'm stopping this."
There is nothing in our experience that can capture the fear that Israelis now live with every hour of every day, where allowing your children to go to a pizza parlour or a disco or just to play in the park can be a choice between life and death.
Let me reaffirm tonight that there is no justification whatsoever for acts of terror against innocent civilians. Canada condemns without equivocation the use of violence for political objectives by any state or group. Moreover, we have called on Yasser Arafat as leader of the Palestinian Authority to live up to his responsibilities. And to take strong and effective action against extremist groups who continue to use the territory under his authority for safe harbour."
- Prime Minister of Canada Jean Chrétien, March 6, 2002
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on May 9, 2002 12:29:18 PM new
The Palestinians just announced that they arrested 16 Hamas members in what is either the first sincere gesture they have made or yet another in a series of Arafat smiley face ploys. I wonder if they are being held in a minimum security-"who is up for a game of volleyball?"- facility? Either that or they are probably glad to have been put together in such large numbers that they can more easily plan a coup.
posted on May 11, 2002 04:50:30 PM new
There is some accurate info here, part of it actually used within context and presented well.
And there is a whole lot of totally inaccurate info that is presented here...and no where else I have read. I suppose that is the "opinion" part of it all.
The recommendations for outright genocide make me just as ill as they would have in the thirties and forties in referrance to the Jewish people. It is an evil thought, an evil concept...no matter who thinks it, no matter who they call for genecide of.
And this statement is not supportable by facts...it is not the truth. "...Kofi Annan disbanded his so-called investigation team because human rights groups found the allegations of atrocities and massacres by Israeli military to be untrue..."
It is crap. The team was disbanded because Israel refused to co-operate and the US agreed to support them in that refusal in return for allowing Arafat to leave his compound. Whether the US was right or wrong remains to be seen. At least it ended that particular stand off.
The Internation Red Cross "Under international humanitarian law, the Israeli authorities must ensure that the camp's population receives medical care and humanitarian aid," said René Kosirnik, ICRC head of delegation. "They also have to guarantee a safe working environment for humanitarian and rescue workers. It is essential to free those trapped underneath collapsed buildings at once." and this was not being done.
Knowing the person that presented this particular thesis...I am sure they will attack these agencies...however, they are the "human rights groups" that investigated and this person totally misrepresented their findings and came up with a completely inaccurate conclusion...then presented the package as facts. This person used crap to support the conclusion. Garbage in...garbage out...
Here is a link to a Time investigation that I find well presented and less biased than many of the media reports.
The Battle of Jenin There are several related articles linked here. One brings out valid points of in the civilian deaths...while personally I disagree with her premise it definately is well presented and does point out that "Suicide bombings don't warrant reprisals against civilians, under the norms of international humanitarian law, but they do warrant urgent measures of self-defense..." before "Commitment to humane norms in warfare is an interest shared by all countries. What's not always so clear in a conflicted world is how to keep the law of war as a shield, not a political sword."
Israel has damn good reasons for having refused the press access, refusing the International Red Cross access and the UN investigation. The PTB do not want the world to know what happened in Jenin.
The Palestinian people are humans and they deserve to be treated as such, just as the Jewish people do. I hate that we as Americans are so bent on dehumanizing Palestinians just as much as I hate that some are dehumanizing the Jewish people in the same fashion.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
[ edited by BittyBug on May 11, 2002 05:00 PM ]
posted on May 11, 2002 05:09:40 PM new
And BTW, I do not support Israel's recent military actions. Nor do I support terrorism or suicide bombers.
Ya wanna know something else...I am not an idiot and the only person that could possible think that I am is an uneducated cretin with a reading comprhension at a preschool level.
I can be, and am, against war atrocities that are committed...no matter which country commits them. I would not look the other way as my "friend" raped and murdered someone while screaming loudly as my enemy did the same. The action opf rape and murder would be wrong, no matter who committed it.
posted on May 11, 2002 05:34:37 PM new
I guess we disagree, Bittybug. Frankly, if I was convinced that HRW was a totally unpolitical organization, their comments might carry more weight with me. But they aren't and they don't. Interestingly, the HRW site you linked to does not comment IN DEPTH on the abuses by the Palestinians. No comment about targeting civilians, specifically YOUTHS. Palestinians who support suicide bombings (and that IS the majority according to polls) will also tell you that these suicide bombers SPECIFICALLY target gathering where they know there will be YOUTHS. The excuse they make is that because of Israels mandatory military service, they are targeting "future soldiers". Sounds like "genocide" in my book. And of course HRW doesn't address the indoctrination of hate that Palestinian children are subjected to from elementary school on. Nor the glorification of suicide bombers, (murderers) as "martyrs" and the encouragement and promised financial reimbursements of their children. Other than a general condemnation of "human shields" by both parties, HRW seems not to address this common practice among Palestinians themselves who do it on a regular basis to shield these murderers and then cry foul when the military comes after them.
I stand by my comments regarding Annan's so called "investigation team". It wasn't going to fly because it was made up SPECIFICALLY of biased parties, whom Israel objected from the get-go, and the United State (thankfully) agreed. Annan has been "characterized" as "Third World". Those two words epitomize the man perfectly. This is a man who has repeatedly "negotiated" with Saddam Hussein and accomplished nothing. Frankly, I have been thinking that the time is coming that that the United States should remove itself from the UN along with it's CONSIDERABLE financial obligations. What kind of rational thinking would replace the United State with SUDAN on the United Nations Commission of Human Rights???? Third World indeed.
I support Israel's right to military defend their country against terrorists. Thankfully, the majority of Americans agree with me. Arafat could have had 97% of what he asked for. But it wasn't good enough for him because what he wants along with the rest of the Arab countries is the extinction of Israel and I don't think you can get anymore genocidal than that.
posted on May 11, 2002 05:39:06 PM new
And an interesting op-ed piece that mirrors my sentiments pretty closely. The Globaloney of International Law http://slate.msn.com//?id=2065629
