posted on June 10, 2002 06:07:31 PM newThose who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither. (Benjamin Franklin)
posted on June 10, 2002 06:17:59 PM new
Excellent quote, Irene.
In answer to Borillars question, Someone mentioned revolution and how scarey it would be. Would it be as scarey as the nightmare world coming right for us?
My answer to that is no, it would not be as scary as what is happening right now. Just about every day, Ashcroft comes up with another terror to justify another stab at the Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights is simply not relevant to this administration.
posted on June 10, 2002 06:32:14 PM new
Here's another bombshell...
On CBS News, Dan Rather reported that he was arrested on MAY NINTH!!!! He has been sitting in a jail cell for a month, without charges, without an attorney, without a Constitution. All because of what somebody said. All these "missing" persons we hardly here about are in the same situation. Apparently, "patriotic fevor" was beginning to wane, and the wrong questions were starting to be asked and suddenly.....
"Hey Rocky, want to see me pull a rabbit out of my hat"
"Not again, that trick never works"
"This time for sure"
(I hope some of you get the Rocky and Bullwinkle reference. As for the rest of you, YOU ARE TOO YOUNG!!! God, I'm old)
And for Ashcroft, Bush and Cheney, that trick always works. And those dangerous ideas like TRUTH, JUSTICE and FREEDOM are quickly swept away and fear takes hold. And the press jumps ravenously on the fresh kill, ingnoring the smell of rotting flesh of our forefathers ideals around them.
Who will "suddenly" appear next as the next rabbit out of a hat? I think the American people are beginning to get bored of these tricks and Ashcroft will have do this monthly....
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on June 10, 2002 06:39:38 PM new
Borillar- read Reamond's post again. All you Libertarians think we should follow this guy until he commits murder and THEN prosecute him? This guy has a criminal past, took a Muslim name, attended terrorist classes and was fingered by a terrorist leader etc. Sounds like a choir boy to me.
gravid- your paranoia is bordering on schizophrenia-get help!
posted on June 10, 2002 06:43:32 PM new
gravid - I hope you'll rethink your decision.
I read people's post that say "Next it will happen to you"....I don't feel threatened. What does make me feel threatened is when these radical muslims keep saying they will destroy our country.
I don't know any Americans who have gone, several times, to middle-eastern countries to train with the al Qaeda. And if we are to protect our country...there's going to need to be a little flexibility here.
As far as holding these 'accused'...if we were at war with another country and we captured an enemy, they'd also be held for months without a trial...just like they were in Vietnam...or worse..killed.
posted on June 10, 2002 06:47:43 PM new
Then I suppose your solution would be to lock up eveyone with a beard. ANd keep an eye on those with a funny name.
Or how about Japanese origin? It been done before. Was it a good thing? Was it right then?
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on June 10, 2002 06:50:32 PM new
Stusi, you think Gravid is insane because you are The Moron Of The Board (with a close second who I sometimes think is y'all posting under another name you're so similar.) And you proved it with that post.
I was going to defend Gravid but frankly he doesn't need it, and you wouldn't Get It anyway.
Gravid: I was awed this morning when I read the status they gave this guy--you know, crossing enemy lines and all, while, as Yellowstone points out, we are not officially at war.
You would've left Germany in '37. I'm thinking of getting out of here now.
posted on June 10, 2002 07:00:21 PM new
1) "While in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Al Muhajir trained with the enemy, including studying how to wire explosive devices and researching radiological dispersion devices," Ashcroft said.
2) Sources said he served three years in a juvenile detention center in suburban Chicago for aggravated battery, armed robbery and attempted armed robbery. He was released on his 18th birthday.... He was arrested in 1991 on a gun and assault charges stemming from a road rage incident in Sunrise, Florida.
3) U.S. officials said the primary information about Al Muhajir came from Abu Zubaydah, the most senior al Qaeda figure captured by U.S. authorities.
So let's see. You've got a sociopathic criminal training with Al-Queida, obviously planning to detonate a radioactive bomb, and you guys are whining about the guy's constitutional RIGHTS? This is being treated as a military matter, plain and simple.
Something that apparently you don't "get" is that life has changed since Septermber 11th. It's impossible to ignore the threat of nuclear terrorism.
posted on June 10, 2002 07:19:01 PM new
No mlcher,Then I suppose...
You'd be wrong. I didn't say that at all. I said we muct allow our government a little more flexibility with 'accused' terrorists.
And what happened during WWII was what the country thought was right at that time; in our best interests. Now, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, most see how wrong that was. But that's not what this administration is advocating.
posted on June 10, 2002 07:25:17 PM new1) "While in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Al Muhajir trained with the enemy, including studying how to wire explosive devices and researching radiological dispersion devices," Ashcroft said.
The key words being: Ashcroft said. No documents, no pictures, no EVIDENCE!
2) Sources said he served three years in a juvenile detention center in suburban Chicago for aggravated battery, armed robbery and attempted armed robbery. He was released on his 18th birthday.... He was arrested in 1991 on a gun and assault charges stemming from a road rage incident in Sunrise, Florida.
Time to gather up half the inner city kids in NYC and charge them as Al Qaeda Terrorists
3) U.S. officials said the primary information about Al Muhajir came from Abu Zubaydah, the most senior al Qaeda figure captured by U.S. authorities.
And who has apparently been ratting out everyone and their brother. It is kind of hard to believe a person who reached such a high position in an organization he fervently believed in, cracked so easily. He has been giving the "authorities" so much information. Such loyalty and dedication to the cause. Oh, all except the important stuff a person of his high position would know, like contacts, hiding places around the world, phone number, weapons caches. You know, things that would put Al Qaeda( you know, they really ought to buy a "u" ) out of business. But he is "supposedly" giving us all the information that keeps us hunked down and not asking important questions...
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
[ edited by mlecher on Jun 10, 2002 07:28 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2002 07:27:30 PM new
mlecher- then I supposeYOUR solution would be to lock up no one with a beard and watch no one with a Muslim name? Get real- why must it be one extreme or another? The paranoia here is incredible! BTW-Sunrise, Florida is about 100 yards from where I am sitting. As I mentioned on another thread the FBI is opening a regional office about two miles from here. You Libertarians are going to have a field day as there are quite a few Muslim mosques and businesses here. There must have been some nests of activity for Atta et al. to have been here other than the flying schools. Go FBI!
What twinsoft said!!!!!
posted on June 10, 2002 07:28:19 PM new
Well, it all seems pretty simple to me. The man was arrested; he is in custody and won't be granted bail which is perfectly legal and often denied. Let him go to trail. Then if he is guilty, do whatever. I guess that I'm missing something here. If he's guilty what's the problem with a trial? Does anyone expect that he's going to escape? What's the deal?
posted on June 10, 2002 07:31:38 PM new
But he has not been charged yet. If fact, officals do not know what to charge him with. He has been in jail for a month with no lawyer and no contact.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on June 10, 2002 07:32:07 PM new
>>On CBS News, Dan Rather reported that he was arrested on MAY NINTH!!!! He has been sitting in a jail cell for a month, without charges, without an attorney, without a Constitution. All because of what somebody said.<<
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA! We're can I read this? Is this really real? What did the Somebody say?
posted on June 10, 2002 07:32:42 PM new
I guess Im just confused. If they arrest someone who trained with the known terrorists, who studied radioactive bombs and how to set them, who has been known to fratenize with said terrorists that are on the wanted list, who is a known gang member with a record (in other words, walks like a duck, looks like a duck therefore it MUST be a duck)...then the government is wrong. BUT, if they arrest someone and dont have sufficient evidence and let that person go and this person did what they THOUGHT he would do and blew up a few dirty bombs and killed a just a few thousand people..the government is still wrong. After all...the rights of an american citizen far outweigh the rights of those that havent been killed from his supposed plannings...YET. Nor does it outweigh the rights of those who dont walk, talk or look like ducks.
I have no fear the men in black coats or helicopters are going to pull me off the street and arrest me stripping me of my "rights", because I havent been to afghanistan, nor have I been in prison, nor have I learned how to build bombs from known terrorists. Am I a fool for thinking this? Ok. Whatever. All I know is I trust that if this person is affiliated with those who were involved in 9/11 and has ties with them, then "birds of a feather flock together" and he deserves to be where he is until they can prove more of what they THINK he is planning. Better to keep those safe he plans to use as "paybacks" for Al Qaeda than to let him go due to "lack of evidence" and seal alot of innocent victims fate.
Muhajir, born in New York as Jose Padilla, was detained by the FBI in Chicago over a month ago, when he flew in from Pakistan on May 8. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, speaking in Moscow where he was meeting with Russian officials, announced the arrest Monday.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on June 10, 2002 07:45:40 PM new
mlecher- It seems you visited the Department of Redundancy Department at Binary University a little too often. Repeating yourself doesn't make you right! Repeating yourself doesn't make you right!
What Hepburn said!!!
[ edited by stusi on Jun 10, 2002 07:50 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2002 07:47:06 PM new
Gravid, I am sorry to hear that you feel this way. However I do understand that everyone has their own comfort level and if you've reached your limit that is your business and you should not be ridiculed for it as someone here seems to be doing.
I do hope you will still post in the non-political threads.
posted on June 10, 2002 07:54:45 PM new
Gravid said he wouldnt post to political threads. I, too, hope he meant just that..the political ones, and doesnt plan to stop posting on other topics here in RT. I like reading his posts (he knows this)
posted on June 10, 2002 07:56:41 PM new
Well, if they know that the guy was involved with all those things of which he was accused, why can't they charge him and bring him to trail?
posted on June 10, 2002 09:22:43 PM new
stusi wrote: "Borillar- read Reamond's post again. All you Libertarians think we should follow this guy until he commits murder and THEN prosecute him? This guy has a criminal past, took a Muslim name, attended terrorist classes and was fingered by a terrorist leader etc. Sounds like a choir boy to me."
" This guy has a criminal past, took a Muslim name, attended terrorist classes and was fingered by a terrorist leader"
And so, you feel that this is what it takes to deny an American Citizen their U.S. Constitutional rights? To have an arrest record, be of the Islamic faith, attended the foreign military training of his choice with job skills, and simply to be pointed out by a captured suspect?
" All you Libertarians think we should follow this guy until he commits murder and THEN prosecute him?"
People have been arrested in this country and put on trial for theirs lives before all too often on just someone else pointing a finger in their direction. Innocent people have often been sent to Death Row and hanged on the slightest of circumstantial of evidences. THIS guy doesn't even get that! And you can't arrest someone on what they MIGHT do - it's just Not Done in a Free Democratic society. Period. And if this is the best that Ashcroft and Homeland Security can do is to incarcerate an American Citizen, take away his rights WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, not even charge him with anything or let him have a lawyer, then I'd suggest that Ashcroft and Homeland Security are a bigger threat to Americans than all of Al-Queda combined!
posted on June 10, 2002 09:28:24 PM new
Folks we are in new territory in this fight.
There are at least two reasons to strip this guy of citizenship and try him in a military court. If it is true that he conspired with foreign powers to attack the US, it is perfectly Constitutional to take his citizenship away and place him under military authority. A person caught during WWII under the same circumstances was given over to "summary" justice by the military.
Second, we learned our lesson giving public trials to foreign combatants. Remember the two al Qaeda guys tried in New York for the emabssy bombings in Africa ? It came out in court that we were intercepting bin Laden's/al Qaeda's cell phone conversations and that's how we knew who bombed the embassies.
Well guess what happened after this came out in court ? al Qaeda stopped using cell phones.
The problem to be solved is the same as it is for alleged illegal aliens that were rounded up.
First it is perfectly legal to arrest and eject illegal aliens. The problem is giving a fair hearing to PROVE that the individual is an illegal alien. Once it is established that the individual is an illegal alien, the only right he/she has is a free trip home.
This same problem exists when stripping a person of their citizenship. There SHOULD be a fair hearing to prove the charges that are being used to strip them of citizenship. Once it is shown that the individual has committed acts that rise to the penalty of losing citizenship, and those acts are conspiracies to harm the US, then let the military have them. The costs of these hearings are also a reason why the govt doesn't want to pursue them in a fair manner.
It appears that the only standard being used now in these two situations is probable cause. Probable cause can be used for warrantless searches, arrests, and trials, but not convictions. Only Congress can change the situation for illegal aliens.
This situation could indeed spirial into a situation where the executive branch can exert powers that are unchecked.
The longer it goes on, the more likely it will be that these issues reach the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has always avoided a political hailstrom when we are at war by making the decisions AFTER the conflict was already over. This tactic dates back to the Civil War. But if this terrorism goes on too long the Courts will not be able to avoid making decisions on these matters.
How should the Bill of Rights apply to a citizen that is accused of conspiring with a foreign entity to harm the US, and there-by losing his/her citizenship ?
What is more important, the Bill of Rights or National Security ? The Court would give very different answers to these questions depending on whether the issue comes before the Court during the treat or after the threat ceases.
