posted on September 13, 2002 06:10:28 PM new
I have to ask..if you [any of you] had heard these men talking about blowing something up in Miami would you have remained silent?
I have to say that I would have said something to someone. I would hate to stay silent and have something happen where many lost lives.
These men were stupid. They should not have said that in this climate. Was just plain stupid. I do not believe they should go to jail though. I think they should have to do some garbage pick-up along the freeway or something similar to pay for being stupid and to keep them from doing it again. Not jail.
posted on September 13, 2002 06:16:18 PM new
Remember that before our politically correct friends made it unfashionable, profiling was a carefully detailed science. In NJ we had the infamous state trooper profiling court case. The drug seizures by NJ State Troopers used to be measured in tonnage. I think it's practically zippo now.
Hey a quickie quizz going around the web!
To ensure we Americans never offend anyone particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids,
airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors. Let's pause a
moment and take the following test:
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by:
(a)Olga Corbutt
(b)Sitting Bull
(c)Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a)Lost Norwegians
(b)Elvis
(c)A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnaped in Lebanon by:
(a)John Dillinger
(b)The King of Sweden
(c)The Boy Scouts
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a)A pizza delivery boy
(b)Pee Wee Herman
(c)Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a)The Smurfs
(b)Davy Jones
(c)The Little Mermaid
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was
murdered by:
(a)Captain Kid
(b)Charles Lindberg
(c)Mother Teresa
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a)Scooby Doo
(b)The Tooth Fairy
(c)Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid.
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a)Richard Simmons
(b)Grandma Moses
(c)Michael Jordan
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a)Mr. Rogers
(b)Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c)The World Wrestling Federation to promote "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of
people were killed by:
(a)Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b)The Supreme Court of Florida
(c)Mr. Bean
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a)Enron
(b)The Lutheran Church
(c)The NFL
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a)Bonnie and Clyde
(b)Captain Kangaroo
(c)Billy Graham
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
posted on September 13, 2002 06:34:34 PM new
I'm sick of PC. I'm sick of it being forced upon me, and to quote an old movie, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Helen & Bollilar: I doubt anything can penetrate your liberal minds, but just, what if, this had been a credible threat?
What if, these hoaxers had been stupid enough to speak in English and talk about their plans? What if they proceeded and truly blew up something in Florida?
What if they blew up something in Florida and Eunice kept quiet?
Terrorists of Middle-Eastern persuasion killed over 3000 people. When will the liberals stop beating the drums about profiling? When Osama et al kill 30,000, or maybe 300,000 when they denotate a dirty bomb. I for one, want them to stop killing Americans now. If profiling stops Americans being killed, wonderful.
In fact, I'll be so not PC as to suggest that the med student on the Visa be sent home. No trial, no hearing, cancel his visa and send him home. While we are at it, lets round up all the non Americans who are on student visas, check out their status, and if they aren't in school, they can catch the next slow boat home.
Not my name on ebay.
[ edited by Valleygirl on Sep 13, 2002 06:53 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2002 06:59:35 PM new
I hope that this waitress isn't ridiculed for reporting it. One of the officials said on the news that she had done the right thing.
What happens if the next person decides they don't want to risk being ridiculed and says nothing?
We could all be in trouble. Next time it might not be some kids acting stupid.
Edit: spelling
[ edited by aposter on Sep 13, 2002 07:02 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2002 07:07:06 PM new
DeSquirrel- Perfect!
Valleygirl- Good for you!
rawbunzel,aposter- You are right of course!
Some just don't get it and never will.
One of the guys was interviewed on TV and denies all. I think the woman may wind up taking a lie detector test. Whether she lied or they lied, some profiling is necessary!
Helen and Borillar- we are awaiting your DeSquirrel test results.
posted on September 13, 2002 07:19:12 PM new
An AlQaeda cell was busted in Buffalo,NY today. Numerous arrests were made. Buffalo is near the Canadian border. It causes concern as to how many such cells are active in North America. Liberals will probably feel sorry for them because it gets quite cold in Buffalo.
posted on September 13, 2002 07:23:27 PM new
I used to work in a facility that regularly received bomb threats. All were treated as true threats. And a bomb was found in the stairwell 25 feet away from the entrance of our unit. A car bomb went off a block from where I lived.
If I overheard someone talking about planting a bomb, I would report it. I still check out unattended packages. Some habits stick around.
For medical students, these guys seem to be lacking brains. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on September 13, 2002 08:37:07 PM new
Rabunzel: In Sept '98 my husband and I celebrated our 25th anniversary with a two week vacation in Washington DC. We stayed at the Watergate Hotel and either walked or used the Metro all over town. Greatest two weeks of my life.
Sorry, I digress. On the day we toured the White House, we were given strict instructions by the secret service that all cameras and camcorders were to be turned off the entire time we were in the White House. Our backpacks and purses were searched before entering.
Once inside, I noticed an Arabic man holding his camcorder at an odd angle under his arm. Further observation revealed that the red light on his camcorder was on and I could see into his viewfinder that he was filming. I debated and debated within myself about saying something to security, and I finally did. Secret Service did NOT confiscate his camcorder (I'm sure today, not only would they confiscate it, but probably arrest him)
Then the camcorder man approached me on the upper level of the White House, he said, "how much did they pay you?". I assume he meant jokingly about turning him in. But the really odd thing is that the man followed us all around Washington DC the whole rest of the day. I've always wondered who that man was and was he one of the terrorists.
So, yes, even before 9/11, I would and did turn one in.
Not my name on ebay.
posted on September 13, 2002 09:15:48 PM new
I'm happy to read that the ignorant and bigots among us are so happy. This episode in a small resturant reminds me of how the south was during segregation. Imagine if three black men walked into an all-white breakfast joint, would they have gotten less suspicious looks? According to you, the blacks should have known better to walk into a resturant populated by whites and after getting dirty looks, decided to jeer on the racists with talk of raping a white woman. "It was all their fault, your Honor! They were BLACK and they weren't where they were wanted. And it's THEIR FAULT for lying about the siutauion. It's not our fualt that they got themselves hung from a tree." How often were words like that told to all-white juries and the racists got off free? You may as well say that the three medical students should have shut their mouths the same way that blacks would have had to a few years back. But if blacks had not kept their mouths shut when it was dangerous to open them up, if they had not refused to sit in the back of the bus, if they had not dared to stand up to bigotry and rasicsm and for their rights, none of us woud be enjoying the Civil Rights laws that we do now. Just because instead of these racist ideals being confined only to the south that it is instead ushered all over America does not make it right. Were we right in imprisoning Japanese Americas - born in America and 110% loyal to America, to be put into concentration camps, their property confiscated, their possesions stolen? Were we right to do that then? We are ASHAMED of what we did back then, or anyone who has a shred of deceny about them would. And you want to do just this same thing to Americans of middle-eastern descent. Screw you Bigots!
posted on September 13, 2002 09:29:01 PM new
Oh. I see Borillar. If someone was sitting in a booth next to you in a restaraunt and talking about plans to blow up some building you would simply ignore it? What if they were white people, would you speak up then? Reverse discrimination that is. I would personaly speak up no matter what they looked like. After all McVeigh was a red-neck white boy and look at all the damage he caused.
Too many nuts of every ilk in the world to stay silent on some things. Doesn't make one a bigot.
edited to add:
I think it would be considered bigoted if it were found she made it up simply because they were middle eastern men. I hope that is not the case.
posted on September 13, 2002 09:46:33 PM new
raw, the problem is that they were convicted before they said anything, simply because they looked middle-eastern. Even if they had not said anytthing, ate their meal in quiet, paid and left, the problem is still the same thing. It is the bigotry of the mind that is offensive. It was bigorty shown towards these men that provoked these men, loyal to America (American born with two naturalized), to express their Freedom of Speech Right in order to hit back at the bigots the only way it would be sure to get a reaction out of them. It sure wasn't someone overhearing plots of blowing things up from white people that got them onto the telephone, it was those of middle-eastern descent. I hope that there will be no more terrorist attacks in this country, but if they are, I hope it will be by Asians next, then Hispanics, then blacks and eskimos and nattive American indians, then Hawaiians. How the hell will you be able to profile then? How will you be able to target people to remove their freedom of speech rights then? Why not just go all out and require Americans of middle-eastern descent to start wearing armbands proclaiming their heirtage or religious beliefs in Islam? Why not? Because it is the Bigotry of the Mind that is dangerous to freedom and liberty. That's where the problem lies, raw.
posted on September 13, 2002 10:00:17 PM new
Borillar, I agree that the kind of bigotry you are profiling is wrong. I still believe that if I heard someone..anyone,any color and size and shape [yes, even Hawaiians ]talking about blowing up a building I would mention it to the authorities. I don't think it would be bigotry in that case. It would be bigotry to turn them in simply for talking about 9-11 in a way that most might find offensive. Without a threat or plan it would not be right to turn anyone in for having an opinion. That I would not do.
I have not condemned these men. I always try to wait to form my opinion of any individual until the facts come out..I may speculate a bit but I withhold judgement until more is known. Speculating about whether or not one should turn someone in for talking about a bombing is not condeming this group of men.
That's just me of course. There are many who would turn someone in for looking at them crosseyed.And that is a problem and a real one in these times.
posted on September 13, 2002 10:02:13 PM newbig·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
posted on September 13, 2002 10:05:33 PM new
Borillar, Do you get Bill Moyer where you live? He has a very good program on right now [here it's chanel 9,public television]] about the patriot act and how far it goes to infringe on rights. You might enjoy it.
posted on September 13, 2002 11:04:34 PM new
About 30 years ago, my now deceased brother-in-law was having dinner in a NYC restaurant with his girlfriend (my sister) and another couple. As the four of them were having a perfectly normal dinner with the usual empty chit-chat, they came to realize that some woman at a neighboring table, whom they did not know, was practically falling off her chair to overhear their conversation.
So my brother-in-law decided to give her something to hear, and began to discuss the brain surgery he was due to perform in a few hours. He went on and on about how delicate an operation it would be, and he wished the waiter would come around so he could order his sixth drink, which he needed to steady his nerves. The other guy in the foursome picked it up (becoming the assisting surgeon in the forthcoming operation) and the two of them discussed the danger and intricacies of the procedure and their need for more liquor.
Yeah, I can imagine good old Eunice now, giving these guys the fish eye, nearly sitting in their laps to overhear what they were saying. So maybe they gave her something to hear, just like my brother-in-law did.
Let Eunice pick up the garbage on the highway and pay the fine, she needs something to keep her busy.
posted on September 13, 2002 11:50:41 PM new
" raw, the problem is that they were convicted before they said anything, simply because they looked middle-eastern."
As per the usual, Borillar makes up the story. Of course they weren't "convicted" BEFORE they said something. THEY SAID IT FIRST.
"Even if they had not said anytthing, ate their meal in quiet, paid and left, the problem is still the same thing."
Borillar, do you actually believe this crap or are you the ultimate troll?????
The real "crime" so far: After they had their fun, THEY LET THESE CLOWNS GO!
The alien should be deported and the other 2 should be making license plates for 6 months.
posted on September 14, 2002 04:10:59 AM new
No, Borillar is right, they were convicted (in this woman's mind) before they said anything, simply because they looked middle-eastern.
"Ms. Stone, who said she was surprised to hear the three speaking in perfect American accents..."
Before a word was spoken by them, this woman had formed a judgement based solely on their looks - hence her surprise when she heard them speak perfect, unaccented American. That went against the notions she had already conceived.
Would we be surprised that a guy born in Detroit and now living in Kansas City speaks without an accent? She was, because he didn't look like she thinks an American should look. Not like the good people of Calhoun Georgia look, and probably not like you or me either.
It's funny that the people in this thread who have used this to bring up the need for profiling (again) haven't realized how stupid it is to piggyback it on this story.
posted on September 14, 2002 04:15:01 AM new
Of course it's not relevant, duhsquirrel, that these students say that they never said what it is claimed that they said, that their accuser is a liar. Why would you believe the three of them over the overexited accusations of a probable bigot in Florida? You wouldn't - the woman MUST have heard what she claims to have heard - she said so didn't she?
posted on September 14, 2002 05:52:41 AM newStone's actions even earned the praise on Friday of Hussein Ibish of the Anti Arab Discrimination Committee.
"I'm really pleased she did what she did," Ibish told Fox News. "Anyone who talks about celebrating about 9/11 raises not only hackles but does raise attention -- it's a very strange and scary thing to say."
The phrases that Stone heard "are indeed exactly what you would regard as legitimately suspicious," Ibish said.
"This strikes me as exactly the type of citizen vigilance that should be done."
posted on September 14, 2002 05:57:00 AM new
I'm withholding judgment on this one. I've spent ten years of my life near Calhoun, Georgia. This isn't an easy call.
posted on September 14, 2002 05:59:39 AM newShe told Fox News that her son had speculated that the men were "playing them," rather than telling the truth. "I hope I haven't done something wrong," Stone had told Fox News. "I hope I haven't caused someone problems that really didn't do anything. . . . At the same time, I thought, 'What if they really are doing something and I stopped them?' "
posted on September 14, 2002 06:32:26 AM new
As an aside, apparently some airlines are profiling. My fifty year old sister was really pizzed off when I picked her up at Dulles this week. She had flown to a midsize city in the midwest from O'Hare. Twice she was asked to step out of the line and was thoroughly searched - patted down, made to operate her beeper and cell phone, and asked to remove her shoes. One guard told her it was because of her Irish first and last names.
posted on September 14, 2002 06:41:10 AM new
Geez, I just finished reading this thread.
Stusi, you have to stop this sort of mastabutory rhetoric and demagaugery. If you only want to hear your own opinon then why not just lock yourself in a closet and babble?
If you shout down and attack every voice that shares an opinion other than your own you will be left by yourself.
And if you always stand on one position and don't LISTEN to what others say and perhaps agree when they are RIGHt you will be no better than that slime Rush Limbaugh.
Desquirrel: Dead on Amigo. I loved your post.
Look folks. All you have to do is look back to WW2. Remember the comic books back then? Nips, Krauts? etc being pumped out to kids.
Propaganda machines work for a reason.
It feels to me that the government of the US today is prepping us up so that they can attack Iraq.
It's as simple as that.
The WTC is our generations Pearl Harbor.
Question: Will another Nagasaki or Hiroshima make any of you feel better?
There are solutions to the middle east. Many may not want them and they may not be as glamourus or as good for Bush's approval numbers but they are there.
It's the governments at this. Not the people.
It's the ismists. Extremists, hard liners, fanatics, and they are on all sides.
If you beat a dog long enough it will eventually bite you.
Do any of you who were shaken by the WTC tragedy and crime looking for another reason to wreak revenge?
And please don't get me wrong. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I do believe that justice needs to be done. Just not cowboy justice.
posted on September 14, 2002 06:58:07 AM new
saabsister - Same thing happened to me on my HI trip. As the ticket agent had removed my luggage strip from the machine, I was targeted. Our travel agent said there was a 25% possibility this would happen.
On each of my flights [& connections], I was taken aside and went through exactly what your sister did. Only at the beginning of my trip they also asked me to step over to a different counter and my two suitcases were throughly inspected. An anniversary gift I'd brought for our son and DILs anniversary was xrayed.
On my second connection I asked what criteria had been used in my 'profiling'. I was told it probably was because my tickets had been changed two days before my trip.
posted on September 14, 2002 07:05:12 AM new
This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I've found it interesting to think about.
Before WWI, my brother-in-law's family self-identified as German. Like a lot of us, they were actually a mixture of several things, mostly Irish and German, but their surname had a German spelling, and they presented themselves this way.
When WWI came around, they made a conscious decision to identify as Irish instead. They changed the spelling of their last name slightly, and began, and have continued since, to present themselves as Irish-American instead of German-American, because of the Anti-German feeling of the time. I imagine that Anti-German feeling must have been pretty rabid, Irish wasn't looked upon favorably; to choose this, you'd had to have a pretty compelling reason.
My best friend's family self-identifies as Norwegian. They settled in Minnesota several generations ago. It wasn't until a few years ago I realized his last name isn't of Norwegian origin, it's German. I suspect his family did the same thing my brother-in-law's family did, probably at around the same time.
They were lucky, they could choose to change how they self-identified and presented themselves. You can't tell, by looking at someone, are they German or Irish or Norwegian? So they were able to avoid the prejudice that came with the war of the day.
People of Japanese descent in WWII didn't have the luxury that Americans in the previous war had had. Change your name to McDonald, you still look Japanese, and you'll be pegged. Same with today's Americans of Middle Eastern descent.
]talking about blowing up a building I would mention it to the authorities. I don't think it would be bigotry in that case. It would be bigotry to turn them in simply for talking about 9-11 in a way that most might find offensive. Without a threat or plan it would not be right to turn anyone in for having an opinion. That I would not do.