posted on January 28, 2003 03:55:02 PM new
from the news story....
"Police have said that Nassan and Trooper Juan Curry were chasing Michael Ellerbe on foot after the 12-year-old ran from a stolen vehicle that crashed following a short pursuit."
posted on January 28, 2003 03:58:17 PM new
Linda, I didn't think anything was directed at me. I know when you're talking to me and when you're discussing things.
What I meant was that you seem to see more police brutality towards blacks. It sounds like it's common in some neighbourhoods. I've not heard of many reports about police brutality against whites, which I'm sure would make the headlines.
posted on January 28, 2003 04:03:40 PM newI've not heard of many reports about police brutality against whites, which I'm sure would make the headlines.
IT IS BECAUSE BOTH PARTIES ARE WHITE AND ONE IS A CRIMMINAL, THAT IS THE REASON YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT SO MUCH.
THAT POLICE OFFICER WILL PROBABLY BE FIRED FOR HIS ACTIONS, AND PROBABLY HIS PARTNER ALSO. BUT AT LEAST ONE FUTURE PRISON INMATE IS NO LONGER GOING TO BE USING SPACE.
WE EXPECT POLICE OFFICERS TO PERFORM FEATS OF HEROISM, BUT WHEN SCUMBAG KIDS GET KILLED, OHHHH THE SHAME...
posted on January 28, 2003 04:09:40 PM new
> But the jury must have heard facts, that we're not aware of,
And that's the heart of the problem in reporting these kinds of things in threads. I really, really wish that court proceedings like the one that exonerated these two police officers for the killing were in the public record and transcripts made available on web sites. As it is, these threads have endless guessing.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:07:04 PM new
Helen, 3 rounds fired into center mass is the standard. {b]Center mass[/b] is described as an area of the upper torso, within the boundries of the top of the shoulders, the outer chest & lower sternum. Yes it ment to kill. Cops are not trained to wound. If they draw their weapons it is because they perceive themselves to be in a deadly situation that may only be remedied by deadly force.
Yes it is an unfortunate situation that the kid died, but the cops did not force him into the stolen car.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:24:21 PM new
Kraftdinner
Absolutely shocking coming from twelvepole...LOL.
His little smiley face on his signature line takes some of the edge off his remarks.
Maybe that's left over from the days of moderation...a hedge.
Actually, I think that it would be interesting for twelvepole to read his comments without the smiley face. It would strengthen whatever he has to say.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:25:20 PM new
I have to agree with Helen. Having had a child who was 12 at one point and my having been 12 at one point (won't say how long ago that was), running from the police isn't surprising at all. Just knowing that the police would have called my parents would have been enough to send me running to get away. Twelve year olds, although capable of commiting adult crimes, cannot be expected to react and think like adults. They think like CHILDREN! There is just no excuse for shooting a child in the back. For that matter, there is no excuse for shooting anyone in the back. That's not only a shoot to kill tactic, that's cowardly and that's murder.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:33:54 PM new
Hell, kids run from getting paddled,They run when scared thats normal.Shooting one in the back?..Why were the cops running with drawn guns?..That was the first mistake.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:37:07 PM new
Right, junquemama!...that is strange, running with drawn guns.
Good points, Cheryl!
A 12 year old is still a child. Bear said, "Once again all this falls under the "Never give a cop a reason to go off on you". That's good advice, but the average 12 year old doesn't know that.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:40:15 PM new
The idea that a person can not use force to protect property as well as themselves is a recent invention of society. It used to be that if a person was killed in committing a crime the community said - tough - they got what they deserved.
With the current idea that no "crime against property" merits defense the criminal has no incentive for caution at all. They have a "right" to take whatever they want if you have something worth taking. It is a formnula to encourage crime and chaos.
Sorry - it is wrong headed. All crimes are against a PERSON. When you steal a car it is not a crime against a Toyota it is a crime against a Toyota owner. It robs him of his transportation he worked for. It steals the hours of his life he put into getting it. It steals his sense of safety and his ability to trust. It goes to the heart of his right to own property - and all the other rights we have hinge on the right to own real things. Without that we do not have any abstract rights.
You shoulkd be able to shoot an intruder in your house or on your land stealing with no doubt you will be praised for cleaning the community of trash.
Don't tell me about how disadvantaged the kid was - he was a damn thief. The kind of scum that makes modern life harder every year. Poor or black is no excuse for dishonest and evil. If it is you have just slandered every poor black person who is too principled or in your eyes stupid to not steal.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:44:17 PM new
I think we forget that we now live in a time where 12 year olds regularly carry guns and use them.... Have 12-year olds shot police...YES THEY HAVE! While in the process of stealing a car!
And the one officer only fired AFTER he heard a shot fired(From the news report also). The officer apparently saw his partner react to the gunshot(only because it was his gun).
Life would be so much easier if criminals were treated like...let say...how about...criminals? Not like some citizenly-challanged individuals.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on January 28, 2003 05:50:57 PM new
Well stated gravid. I agree 100%.
Recently heard about a man who 'harmed' [not sure if he killed him or not] an intruder INSIDE HIS SON'S BEDROOM and DC was thinking [haven't read if they have] about prosecuting HIM. Saying he had no right to do harm to the intruder. THAT'S NUTS!!!
No intruder would walk or be invited to leave my child's bedroom. The coroner would be coming for them.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:55:05 PM new
It wasnt about being dis-advantage to me,It was being shot in the back.If you shoot a thief ,You have to make sure it is indoors.Running from you, is not the same as running to you.
posted on January 28, 2003 05:55:21 PM new
Nobody has mentioned poor or disadvantaged, gravid.
Shooting a 12 year old kid in the back is wrong or as Cheryl said, shooting anybody in the back is wrong.
And furthermore, police have procedure that they are required to follow.
I have some friends who sailed around the world and stopped in various ports. When I asked them if they carried a gun on board, they answered, Oh no! If we had a gun we would have killed an intruder once...turned out to be a local unarmed kid who was drunk.
posted on January 28, 2003 06:01:28 PM new
[quote]And now, of course, the fact that the kid was involved in a crime will be forgotten and the police officer in question will become the "bad guy" in all this.[/quote]
The cop shot a kid in the back. The rest is a flat-out lie. No doubt BOTH cops were shooting at the kid, and concocted the story afterwards. On one hand, you've got two lying cops backing each other up. On the other, you've got a dead suspect. Case closed.
posted on January 28, 2003 08:12:22 PM new
If he is a thief yes. If I have to choose between being able to live in peace and security in my own home and hurting intruders they are dead meat.
So not the house - but the SANCTITY of my home. It is my castle. Inside the door uninvited your butt belongs to me.
If he comes in my house you can bet he is willing to hurt me. That is also the another fact ignored. Again the crime is not against my HOUSE. It is against me. No Brick Colonial was ever a victim.
Every time you decide you will invade another persons house you know it may end in violence.
If you are too stupid to know that - well that is another problem on top of being a thief.
If you don't want your 12 year old kid hurt you better damn well know he is not in my bedroom pawing through my jewelry box at 2 in the morning.
A child that commits an adult felony proclaims his own majority to me. He says I am a big enough bad ass to come in your house and take your stuff away from you. That's not a child.
You can make up all the silly rules and laws you want and call a zillion experts to say that a child can't make judgements yada yada yada. But if he is not responsible then whoever IS responsible better keep him under control. Just like a dog owner is responsible for the dog. He better exercise the judgement the dog lacks. Well by 12 you better teach your kid not to steal or lock him in his room until you can emancipate him.
posted on January 28, 2003 08:32:18 PM new
KD, what if the roles were reversed? What if one of the cops was shot and killed? What if the kid's story was, I was running away from the cops and my gun accidentally went off and shot the officer dead?
How likely do you think it that story would be believed?
posted on January 28, 2003 08:35:08 PM new
Gravid, last time I checked, this was America, where cops shouldn't go shooting suspects without provocation.
Even if you believe the cops' highly, highly improbable story, the one who shot the kid should still be tried for manslaughter.
posted on January 28, 2003 08:59:58 PM new
I see what you're saying twinsoft - you're probably right. I guess you gotta say whatever you can to protect your a$$ these days. (No matter what side of the fence you're on.)
posted on January 28, 2003 09:30:22 PM new
Thanks, KD.
When cops testify in court, their testimony has more weight because they are "expert" witnesses, trained to observe facts.
But when someone gets hurt, or killed, it's always the same refrain: It's a high-pressure, dangerous job. As if that is some excuse for brutality.
This was not a case of a homeowner being surprised by a burglar. Gravid, you might as well say that you'd shoot a kid caught stealing a bicycle. You're deranged, man.
Bottom line, cops KNOW they can get away with murder. So what kind of person do you think that brings to the police recruitment office?
You may recall I posted a thread here a while ago about two police brutality cases: one involving a police chief's son (still under investiagation, the cops refuse to talk to investigators) and the other involving a public disturbance in which the suspect died.
Although there's no reference on the Web, the Palo Alto Daily reported that in the Redwood City case, seven officers subdued the man (remember this was just a public disturbance, nothing more), kneeling on his chest and neck. The coroner's report stated that the man's larynx and chest were crushed. Also reported, the police took the suspect into a garage for ten minutes before transferring him to a police car, then drove half-way around the block and transferred him to an ambulance.
The suspect was tapping on his ex-girlfriend's window with a stick. After police arrived, she reported hearing cries of "My neck! My neck!" and then finding a large pool of blood where the suspect was subdued.
There must be an accounting for this type of behavior. We can't allow police to become the judge, jury and executioner of our citizens. The twelve-year old made a mistake. He didn't deserve to be shot in the back.
posted on January 28, 2003 09:49:14 PM new
No one has a right to try, convict, and carry out a sentence outside a courthouse.
The only time deadly force should be used by a citizen or a police officer is when lives are objectively threatened.
I have heard these readical law and order pronouncements before. It all sounds good rhetorically, but when they show up at your door and it is your son, daughter, wife , husband, that has been shot down, the attitude changes rapidly.
posted on January 29, 2003 12:38:17 AM new
Eveyone keeps making a big deal of the 12 year old issue. It's not as if the pollice knew they were chasing a child. As a general rule, 12 year olds do not steal cars, get involved in automobile or foot involved police chases. We have no information on the size of this kid (I say because my neighbors 13 year old daught towers over me and is built like a linebacker)
If you are a cop chasing a stolen car it's a pretty safe assumption that you are dealing with an adult with criminal experience (no first timer steals a car by himself).
We know nothing about history of violence against police officers in the area however if you are chasing what you assume to be an experienced criminal and hear gunfire as your partner is climbing over a fence it is a natural assumption that it's not your partner shooting.
In this case you don't start running a jagged lin to avoid further possible gun fire, you do as you are trained to do. You fire.
What happened is tragic but with so many aspects of the story missing, no one is in a position to assign guilt or innocence in the shooting to either the Officer of the Perpetrator (sorry - I'm not going to call a car theif a victim).
If the shot the officer heard had been fired by the kid and had hit a bystander - would you still be so indignant ?
BTW - as for the concept of it all being a lie and the first cop just missed.... wouldn't location of the bullet have dispelled that theory immediately?
posted on January 29, 2003 01:41:33 AM new
Stealing a car at 12yrs,
Good chance he wouldn’t have lived long anyhow, but, to shot him WAS WRONG!
HelenJW
“Oh no! If we had a gun we would have killed an intruder once...turned out to be a local unarmed kid who was drunk.”
A policeman I know was telling us a true story about when he first started. He and partner, while driving along, saw 2 teenagers, near a train crossing.
As they stoped to look the kids turned and ran.
They stoped and he pursued one of them on foot, it was along chase in the dark along the tracks, he tired - feeling he was approaching his limit, but ran as hard as he could to catch the teenager.
After a while of running the kid in a desperate voice shouted, “why are you casing me”, he responded “why are you running”.
Hilarious story at the time.
But what if a gun accidentally went off.
Lets See mlecher,
Those of you that chose number 2, would arrest an unarmed car thief, or at worst he’d get away.
twelvepole
DAMN THIEF GOT WHAT HE DESERVED, WHAT ABOUT THE PERSON HE STOLE THE CAR FROM?
BUT AT LEAST ONE FUTURE PRISON INMATE IS NO LONGER GOING TO BE USING SPACE.
SCUMBAG KIDS GET KILLED, OHHHH THE SHAME...
1”pole- You’re an _SS -H_L_
would you like lo buy a vowel.
Sadam would only have cut his hands off (so they say) but you’re happy to kill the kid.
gravid
“If you don't want your 12 year old kid hurt you better damn well know he is not in my bedroom pawing through my jewelry box at 2 in the morning
You shoulkd be able to shoot an intruder in your house or on your land stealing with no doubt you will be praised for cleaning the community of trash.
Don't tell me about how disadvantaged the kid was - he was a damn thief. The kind of scum that makes modern life harder every year. Poor or black is no excuse for dishonest and evil.”
How nice for you, IF you own Jewellery
It’s people like you that are the ‘trash’ -- shoot for trespassing,
I think you’ve seen too many cattle rustling movies.
You are a redneck, just like 12pole.
Let’s hope one of your brood never steals a rubber from one of his, or visa versa.
They are probably both tared with the same brush as you and will come out with both guns blazing.
Offended?
not as much as humanity should be by your comments.
I have no problem with responding with appropriate force, but as junquemama tells us,
“Running from you, is not the same as running to you.”
I don’t think the kid got what he deserved,
I’d like to think it was a bad call.
If not then he’s a criminal.. Simple.
Don’t forget, theft is not just a police problem it’s a social and or mental health problem.
People steal when they are hungry also.
For example,
If your kids were hungry and you couldn’t feed them, or pay their medical bill, and had no-one to help wouldn’t you?
Also
That’s what happens when we have the freedom to watch all kinds of smut on t.v.
and grow up in a neighbourhood with high crime.
Yesterday I heard that a couple of young men in USA murdered their mother, and got the idea from a program called ‘The Sopranos”
We permit paedophiles to have social organisation, which has a tendency to desensitise,
In Aust, there is a neo-nazi dood starting a new national political party, he is an ex-con with 15yrs clocked up for violence and racist acts, If he gets 500 paid members, he’ll be on the ballot paper.
That’s what we get for ‘less government intervention’
TRY, TRY, TRY, to understand the reason for some people’s behaviour in different cultures or sub cultures, especially a juvenile.
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