gravid
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posted on January 29, 2003 05:28:22 AM new
I understand. I have been broke and unable to work and no food in the house.
But I can not ACCEPT.
There is no way I will ever agree the it is OK to go steal from another person because you are hungery or just desensitized by your environment or watching TV. You are responsible for your actions. That is why it is cruel putting the mentally ill out on the street as the government has because they will be held accountable even though they can't control themselves.
As to the police - you can talk about how expert they are 'til the cows come home but most of them are like a dog. If you run it provokes aggressive behavior. Better to stand your ground with them. I have had confrontations with police several times just because I am big and they literally get their hackles up and don't like the implicit challenge of a big guy. A smaller one they'd just talk to and jolly, but a big one they feel threatened. I have told police several times to either arrest me or I am done with them and walking away. Damn guys are always quick to put their hand on their gun real fast. As soon as they are standing there with their hand on their gun I won't talk to them about anything but the fact the hand on the gun is threatening me.
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colin
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posted on January 29, 2003 05:40:18 AM new
Sounds like a horrible accident. It's even worst that the young man was 12 years old.
How would the police officer know how old he was? Officers are taught to shoot to kill. anyone that thinks you can just shoot to injury or maim has been watching too many old cowboy movies and knows little or nothing about firearms.
If he didn't steal the car the chain of events would have never happened.
It would only be a matter of time till the race card would be thrown into the PIC. That's just the way things are.
How many that are up in arms about this, want to be a police officer and put into this situation? What would you do? You heard a shoot, are in pursuit of a criminal. May know of a fellow officer that has been shot in a similar situation.
Life's a #*[email protected] you shouldn't do things that may end it.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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Linda_K
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posted on January 29, 2003 05:52:11 AM new
Here's the url of the case I spoke of. Mostly for gravid, because I very much support his belief that our home is our sanctuary, not merely a building.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30683
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 29, 2003 05:53 AM ]
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neonmania
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posted on January 29, 2003 10:27:34 AM new
::Yesterday I heard that a couple of young men in USA murdered their mother, and got the idea from a program called ‘The Sopranos” ::
The report got a little twisted by the time it got to you. The kids had already killed their mother. It wasn't the show that gave them the idea. The show gave them the idea to remove her head and hands to make identification impossible.
Let's not demonize TV in this, it's not TV's fault. People were removing limbs to avoid indentification long before The Sopranos.
Let's not turn the child into a helpless victim just trying to get by feeding his starving family. He stole a car, not a bread truck.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame the kid was killed but lets not turn him into a little angel.
He stole anothers vehicle and wrecked it - where's all of the heartfelt sympathy for the car owner?
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KatyD
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posted on January 29, 2003 10:31:23 AM new
Dunno, neomania. He may have stolen the car so he could go rob the local Taco Bell.  assuming that hunger was the extenuating circumstance for car theft.
KatyD
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 10:35:56 AM new
I don't understand how the conversation went from being a 12 year old,shot in the back,To home invasion or home protection.
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colin
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posted on January 29, 2003 10:50:19 AM new
junquemama,
Why? Because crime is crime. It's a blight on our nation. You want to play...You'll have to pay.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:00:46 AM new
Silly me...I go by each sitution....The jury was already in.
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Linda_K
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:03:01 AM new
junquemama - The jury was alread in. What do you mean please?
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:20:20 AM new
LindaK,Why bother to argue about a 12 year old running "from" the cops,And the cops running with "drawn guns",The popular belief here is he deserved to die,It doesnt matter if it was a cowardly way to snuff a life out.Zero tolerance is what I see here,No one was ever a kid or got into trouble.How was your decision process at the age of 12?..Did he believe some fairy tale on the TV,that he could get away from the cops and he wouldnt be harmed? All the police shows on TV,The cop either chases the bad guy down or gives up the chase.I watch Cop's every Sat.You never see those policeman running with guns,Much less shoot someone in the back.Theres a reason for that,integrity. of the law and the people with the badges and guns.
[ edited by junquemama on Jan 29, 2003 11:22 AM ]
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Linda_K
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:29:31 AM new
junquemama - Thank you.
How was your decision process at the age of 12?
Mine was quite set about what was right and wrong. I knew there would be consequences to any negative behavior I might display. Kept me from doing a lot of things that I wanted to do, but knew were wrong. The thinking now-a-days seems to always be to find an excuse for the criminals behavior. There are consequences to all behavior.
To me, no one here feels ANY death is 'okay'. Some are judging this to have been a terrible accident. But the comments you're reading are how people feel about our society leaning too far in favor of the criminal, and not understanding that the victim is the victim, not the criminal. Not we think it's okay to kill a youth. Society is becoming less and less tolerant about what these 'youths' are doing.
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colin
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:31:47 AM new
The jury's not in. The cops will still be investigated and charged if necessary.
No faith in out system of justice?
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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neonmania
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:40:27 AM new
Junque - what world do you live in? 12 year olds do not pick stealing a car by themselves as their first crime. The don't know how. This is not Leave it to Beaver. Beave didn't watch a neato show on TV and "Golly gee Wal, I just wanted to go for a malted".
It takes an experienced criminal to break into and hotwire a car or attain the jigglers that will enable you to start someone elses car.
This is not little Jimmy down the street. This is a 12 year old boy with the experience and moxie to steal a vehicle and then when caught, rather than freeze in fear as most kids in a first time situation would do, he ran..
[ edited by neonmania on Jan 29, 2003 11:40 AM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:50:08 AM new
What a bunch of callous, uninformed people.
Helen
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colin
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posted on January 29, 2003 11:57:12 AM new
Callous:
1 a : being hardened and thickened b : having calluses
2 a : feeling no emotion b : feeling no sympathy for others
True to a certain point. I think many are "hardened from the years of crime" but Most if not all on the board feel emotion, sympathy and ahbor the lose of the young mans life.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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Helenjw
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posted on January 29, 2003 12:17:55 PM new
Well, I think that even the police officer, if he had the time to sit down and consider this case carefully that he would not have considered shooting this 12 year old child in the back. I'll bet that if he read such a story that he would have found it unacceptable also.
Sometimes in the heat of an emotionally charged encounter, people can make serious mistakes such as this. But to sit down at a computer, carefully read the story and then approve of this action is unbelievable to me.
Helen
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colin
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posted on January 29, 2003 12:29:48 PM new
Helen,
I don't believe anyone would approve of the story.
I'm willing to bet the officer that shot the young man has a knot in his stomach and won't sleep a good nights sleep for a long time. I sure he's not the storm trooper some have portrait him.
Few people are really callous. I've met some but very few.
Yes, people write thing's in the heat of the moment but that's not there intermost feeling.
It's usually a trigger that goes off. In this case Crime. People are sick of it. We have young people committing murder on a daily bases. Shooting of kids by kids. Robbery's, car jacking, on and on.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 12:32:31 PM new
neonmania,What world do I live in?
Helens...
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kraftdinner
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posted on January 29, 2003 12:36:52 PM new
Thank-you Helen!!
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neonmania
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posted on January 29, 2003 01:44:04 PM new
Junque - I live in a world where two blocks from where the biggest stars of entertainment and sports were partying last week for the Super Bowl I can go right now and purchase crack from any of 3 or four different dealers, (by about 10 oclock tonight you can double that number) half of whom are kids. This is not a run down ghetto or bario area, this is Metropolitan Downtown San Diego right in front of $1500 a month lofts
I live in a world where last Thursday six 14 year old gang memebers piled into a Prizm and drove thru rival gang areas provoking their rivals. Three of them are now dead.
I live in a world where two hours ago a innocent person at home was grazed by the bullet of a car thief shooting at police who tried to apprehend him as he ran away. Police shot and killed him as he continued to attempt to flee. Should we start mourning him too?
I live in the real world.
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 01:59:41 PM new
neonmania,and in your real world,You did not mention someone shot in the back who was un-armed.
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gravid
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posted on January 29, 2003 02:00:11 PM new
I figured the basic question was is it permissible to use force to protect property.
The thinking on that has changed.
As an example in the State Constitution it says very plainly that a citizen can carry a weapon to protect himself - the state - and his property.
Yet despite that document being unaltered the courts have rules it is not legal to use any level of force - not just lethal- that might cause bodily harm to protect property.
Everybody says - just property - but as I said property rights are the basis for all our other rights. If you are not warm and fed you can't exercise free speech for example.
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neonmania
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posted on January 29, 2003 02:30:12 PM new
Junque - you keep ignoring the fact that the officer heard a shot fired ans saw a reaction from his partner. Guess that fact just doesn't lend itself to your slant.
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 03:22:15 PM new
neonmania,The cop going over a fence discharged his pistol.
One of the 1st things in gun safety,and how it is taught , how to get across a fence or under a fence with out killing your self.The 1st cop put himself in danger by doing this,The second cop didnt know who fired the shot and killed the young man.
The error started with the first officer.
The second officer re acted,That is understandable.A kid died after being shot in the back,He was unarmed.
Slant all you want,Im guessing this is how it will play out in court.
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neonmania
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posted on January 29, 2003 03:56:34 PM new
Junque - it's been a few days since this thread started and it's made a few detours so you understandably may have forgotten....
QUOT
A coroner's jury ruled Monday that a state trooper was justified in shooting an unarmed 12-year-old boy in the back.
The ruling came after Trooper Samuel Nassan testified that he fired only after his partner's gun went off accidentally leading Nassan to believe mistakenly that his partner had been shot.
END QUOTE
It's not going to court. It was an unfortunate but justified shooting. I think it's horrible that it happened but where in all of this bluster and blame for the officer and blame for TV and such like, is the blame for the parents of a 12 year old that had so little control or influence over their child that he was in this situation to begin with? Why was the 12 year old able or inclined to steal a car?
[ edited by neonmania on Jan 29, 2003 03:58 PM ]
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hepburn101
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posted on January 29, 2003 04:05:15 PM new
I havent seen this on the news, nor have I clicked links, so Im not aware of what the 12 year old kid looked like. With that said, I have seen 12 year olds that looked 20 and were as big and buffed as 20 year olds. So the kid was 12. He stole a car and ran. Cop fired. Cop didnt know kid was kid, nor unarmed. In todays world, EVERYONE has a damn gun and will KILL you for the smallest and stupidest thing. I dont blame the cop one bit. Not one bit. I DO blame the parents of the kid for letting him be a car thief at 12 years old and no supervision.
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 04:06:24 PM new
neonmania,Well in all this bluster as you call it,No one brought it up.This does not diminish the end result.
I dont believe it is over,..Even from a coroners jury ruleing.
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Helenjw
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posted on January 29, 2003 04:09:13 PM new
No, it's not over. Although the shooting was ruled justified by the coroners jury, "Attorney Joel Sansone, who represents Ellerbe's family, said he and Geoffrey Fieger, a nationally known civil rights attorney from Michigan, will file a federal civil rights law suit possibly this week."
Helen
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junquemama
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posted on January 29, 2003 04:21:54 PM new
Takeing 5 to say Hi to Hep.....what took you so long to get here?..
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Helenjw
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posted on January 29, 2003 04:27:33 PM new
If the car thief was 25 and 300 pounds, Hepburn, police cannot try and execute a suspect while he is running from the scene.
Even South Africa's highest court has ruled that the country's police may not shoot at fleeing criminals.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Jan 29, 2003 04:46 PM ]
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