posted on February 28, 2003 01:25:38 PM new
The money/aid we gave those countries served an "immediate" interest. It's like buying a meal. You pay, you get your food and eat it and you go on. You can't come back a day later and demand another meal for the money you paid with the day before.
I didn't think it was that hard to understand ?
North Korea was given aid to stop using certain nuclear reactors and developing nuclear weapons. They stopped using the reactors and stopped overtly developing weapons.
But now the agreement is over. We stopped sending aid long ago.
However, I am in complete agreement about North Korea. All aid should stop. If North Korea even sneezes or twitches after the threats they have made, they should be nuked by the US and allies into non-existence.
We should not be paying blackmail to them, nor should we allow them to threaten South Korea, the West Coast of the US and Japan with nuclear weapons.
If the choice is between being blackmailed and face losing thousands of Japanese/S Koreans/Americans or the destruction of N Korea, then I think the choice is easy to make.
The US is not creating these impossible situations, but the America haters are sure blaming the US.
Where are the protests marches against North Korea ?
posted on February 28, 2003 01:42:24 PM new
Did either of you watch the Presidents address to the Union,when he added N. Korea to the axis of evil,he slapped their face unexpectedly.N.Korea then ran off the inspectors and unplugged the monitors.Now N.Korea is making damn sure the US is going to pay attention,They now have a nuke plant up and running.
Now tell me,if Bush had never said anything,would we be even considering a war with N.Korea?.The answer is NO..Now we are being black mailed by N. Korea having a missle that can hit Calif.
Dont you think that may make some of those silly movie stars just a little upset?
posted on February 28, 2003 01:52:13 PM new
Unexpectedly my a**.
We had surveilance phots showing NK's breaking of the agreement.
Do you really think that the first time NK heard anything about this was during a televised speech ?
We stopped fuel shipments as soon as NK admitted they were conducting nuclear develop in under ground facilities.
I guess you think it is good policy to pay these evil pr*cks not to kill us or our allies. They torture and starve their own people, insist on a form of government that denies even basic freedoms, and YOU say that calling them what they are is a "slap in the face"??
WHAT PLANET DO YOU FOLKS GET THESE POSITIONS FROM ?
It is one thing to lose an election and have a House, Senate, and President from a party you disagree, but these are not party issues. They are common sense foreign issues. Clinton bombed and invaded Kosovo and not a peep out of any of you. Do you remember what Clinton said about Molosovic ? I guess it was a real slap in the face when we went after that ba*tard. But not a peep out of any of you.
posted on February 28, 2003 02:08:16 PM new
REAMOND,and there you go with Clinton.Because I dont wish to go along with your version of events.
N.Korea has always been evil,we have let them sit in peace all these years and be evil.Nothing has changed except our going after Saddam to dis-arm WOMD.We did the push,and now the cornered rats are coming out of the corner.
Understand please,what I am saying,We pushed and they are gonna fight back.None of those Countrys are going to let us walk in and walk over them.
posted on February 28, 2003 02:11:36 PM newThey torture and starve their own people, insist on a form of government that denies even basic freedoms, and YOU say that calling them what they are is a "slap in the face"??
posted on February 28, 2003 03:04:32 PM new
What is not being said is how this gfas will be used. The idea is to use it to disable everyone in an area so they can be sorted out at leisure.
That means gassing the whole population. And if it kills the younger kids and the weaker old people well tough.
It is the same as stratigic bombing. Do you really want to go down that road? It's no better than what was done on 9/11.
posted on February 28, 2003 03:29:34 PM new
Bottom line,no matter how you twist or spin it,The Inspections are CRAP! they will not work they had 12,count them 12 years to complie.So as you spin your weak viewpoint's let me make this easy,we pull out,your inspections WONT work at all.
The Gas will only INCAPACIATE not kill ,mame or cripple,that's Saddams job!
posted on February 28, 2003 03:31:15 PM new
I agree with junquemama and gravid. There is no doubt that napalm would be better than putting them to sleep. Yup, no question.
[ edited by Tex1 on Feb 28, 2003 03:46 PM ]
posted on February 28, 2003 03:42:43 PM new
ijusthaveit,,,Ummmmmmmmm give me a minute to come up with one of those weak answers of spin.........In 12 years,We havent been hit with any WOMD,and neither has anyone else.
posted on February 28, 2003 03:57:12 PM new
Use of the nerve gas in the Moscow theatre siege caused the death of 115 people and disabled 50 others. It blocks the transmission between nerve and muscle causing memory loss, sweating, loss of conciousness, respiratory problems, hallucinations and anxiety attacks. If not used exactly right, it causes death.
BTW..It was developed by the US Department of Defence and is advertised as safe.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Feb 28, 2003 03:59 PM ]
posted on February 28, 2003 04:14:02 PM new
Helen, the gas used in Moscow was fentanyl, which is used in anesthesia. Very powerful stuff. But not developed by the Department of Defense. It's a pharmaceutical that you will find in most any hospital. Dangerous stuff if not administered by someone who is trained medically to use it, because it can have severe adverse effects based upon body weight, age, and physical fitness of the individual. That's why so many children died during the siege. They were simply too small for the amount that was pumped in. Also, the hostages were dehydrated and deprived of food during their ordeal, so not in the best of physical condition to tolerate the drug.
It also would have helped some had the Russian military disclosed and prepared responding medical personnel ahead of time so that they were prepared to administer antidotes to the drug.
posted on February 28, 2003 04:21:55 PM new
From that article....
"The antidote being used is for the group of nerve agents related to the gas BZ, developed by the US military in the 1970s. BZ is a "glycolate" which attacks the central nervous system. It was developed by the US Department of Defence and is considered non-lethal if applied correctly."
posted on February 28, 2003 04:24:14 PM new
We have not YET been hit with WOMD.Except our own planes.
Gas has already been tested on Rats Rabbits & Monkeys.Saying I should try it is like saying you are a tratior for speaking against your country.So the question is are you?
posted on February 28, 2003 04:35:49 PM new
Helen, that article is out of date and erroneous. Notice that it was "speculating" on the drug used. It has since been disclosed by Moscow that it was fentanyl, which US medical experts at the time of the siege had already deduced was the drug used.
posted on February 28, 2003 04:37:42 PM new
ijusthaveit,Why didnt you just say,you wanted to play.Are you just bored and wanting to fight,or just someone with a reading comprehension problem?So far you have used nothing in the way of new information to add to the conversation.Calling someone a traitor because they don't agree with you is a very callous and immature remark.
posted on February 28, 2003 04:48:50 PM newHostages given military's nerve gas antidote
Symptoms of those rescued linked to mysterious agent which Russian officials refused to name at first, even to doctors
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow and Richard Norton-Taylor
Monday October 28, 2002
The Guardian
Russian doctors treating hostages for the inhalation of the gas deployed during the Moscow theatre siege are using an antidote supplied by the Russian military for a rare form of nerve agent developed in the 1970s, according to chemical warfare experts. Clumsy use of the mysterious nerve agent caused the deaths of at least 115 hostages in addition to disabling most of the 50 Chechen hostage-takers.
The antidote being used is for the group of nerve agents related to the gas BZ, developed by the US military in the 1970s. BZ is a "glycolate" which attacks the central nervous system. It was developed by the US Department of Defence and is considered non-lethal if applied correctly.
Russian authorities initially refused to name the gas that killed the hostages, leading to complaints that it was making their job of treating patients with antidotes much harder. Yet chemical warfare experts told the Guardian that Moscow doctors had been given an antidote by the Russian military for a rare nerve agent developed by the US military, called BZ. Professor Steven Rose, of the Open University, said a Russian counterpart had told him that doctors had been supplied the antidote from a military stockpile.
"All nerve agents, like Sarin gas and those that the Iraqis use, block the transmissions between nerve and muscle", said Professor Rose. "These would produce the memory deficits that hostages have talked about."
The symptoms usually caused by BZ match those of the hostages carried out of the building. It causes skin to be drained of colour, sweating, victims to appear concussed, possibly have respiratory problems. Victims can also experience hallucinations and huge anxiety attacks.
Prof Rose said he had been in contact yesterday with a Russian counterpart, Professor Konstantin Anokhin at the Institute of Normal Physiology in Moscow, who shared his suspicions about the identity of the gas.
Prof Anokhin said he had spoken to doctors treating the hostages who had been supplied by the Russian military with an antidote for general class of substances to which BZ belonged.
"BZ is a muscarnic cholinergic blocker," said Prof Rose. "It affects a special type of nerve, known as a muscarnic receptor, in the brain. When it is released into the atmosphere, it gets into the lungs. It then passes through the blood stream and through the entire brain."
Prof Rose said the agent affected the chemical acetylcholine, which carries messages from one nerve cell to another.
"BZ interacts with this and stops the message getting across", he added. "It's like turning the volume up on a radio, and stopping any changes in the signal, so the message loses all its meaning."
The agent works on the brain and paralyses its ability to interpret what is going on. "It turns off the lights, and destroys the body's headquarters."
Prof Rose added that the people least likely to be affected by the gas were the terrorists themselves as they are the healthiest and the most prepared for such a situation. "It will affect the young and the old more than the fit," he said. There were many young women among the casualties carried from the theatre. "Obviously in this case it was used in grossly high concentrations," he said. "The victims appear to be the very young and old, which you would expect if it was used in a confined space."
The gas has never been used before, Prof Rose said, except perhaps in secret, or in a US propaganda film in the 1970s, by the US Department of Defence. "It was stockpiled and never used in the west." Prof Rose said he had experimented with the gas - which originally comes as a white powder mixed with a propellant, in a laboratory, but never on humans. He was not aware if the Soviet Union had obtained the gas.
"It is bound to be lethal in high concentrations," said Prof Rose. "It would shut down the brain and if this happens for long enough the body stops getting oxygen and the brain itself dies."
The use of chemical agents, whether BZ or other similar agents which attack the central nervous system, had two major implications, according to Dr Malcolm Dando, professor of international security at Bradford University's school of peace studies, who also advises the UN.
They are new forms of agents in which both the American and Russian military are increasingly interested as they develop "non-lethal" weapons following growing understanding of the nervous system. "They are a harbinger of what's to come," warned Dr Dando.
He also pointed out that because of a loophole these nerve agents are not covered by the international chemical weapons convention. The US has said they have the right to use them.
"We are going down a very slippery path towards new forms of agents," Dr Dando added. He said the agents could be developed for mind control.
The International Commitee of the Red Cross recently expressed concern about the development of so-called "non-lethal" weapons.
The Russian military have considered using such "non-lethal incapacitants" before, said Lev Feodorov, the president of the Union of Chemical Security, to stop the coup attempt of 1993. Yet they decided against it.
One analyst said such gases were highly delicate substances whose improper use could be disastrous. "It is a very exact process putting them together," said defence expert Paul Beaver.
posted on February 28, 2003 05:00:10 PM new
If we could get Saddam on a heavy dose of Prozac. I think this war thing would be over.
Amen,
Too bad it's not the 60's,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 28, 2003 05:03:33 PM new
Here's just one news article that came out after the guardian speculation, Helen. It was fentanyl. I realize it's not nearly as sensational as blaming it on the ole USA's stockpile of nasty nerve gasses. But it's what was used. Not anything that came from the "US Department of Defence". I know this must be disappointing. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/31/world/main527614.shtml http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/30/moscow.gas/
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Feb 28, 2003 05:06 PM ]
posted on February 28, 2003 05:12:29 PM new
I think it is all bad.....
The focal points for US development of these weapons are the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate in Quantico, Virginia, and the US Army Soldier Biological Chemical Command, located at Edgewood/Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Following their capture in Afghanistan and elsewhere, the US has used incapacitating chemicals on suspected terrorist "detainees". In October 2002, Russian Special Forces used a so-called "non-lethal" incapacitating biochemical weapon when storming the Palace of Culture Theater in Moscow. It resulted in the deaths of over 100 hostages and was used to facilitate the extrajudicial execution of as many as 50 Chechen separatists. Before the War on Terrorism began, British officials stated that they would not cooperate with the US military in missions where US troops used incapacitating chemicals.
posted on February 28, 2003 05:27:19 PM new
Helen,
Believe what ever makes you happy. That's your right as an American. You can thank President Bush for that.
