neonmania
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posted on April 10, 2003 10:01:07 AM new
you heard that one of the buildings being looted in Bagdahd was the German Embassy?
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trai
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posted on April 10, 2003 11:28:52 AM new
No! It could of also been the "old" U.S. Embassy. Have no use for looters at any time. If they can not get this under control fast its going to be a huge problem as food stuff and anything you can think of is being stolen.
Do not need a huge black market in Iraq as it will just draw more crime in the end.
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neonmania
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posted on April 10, 2003 12:22:19 PM new
Huge black market? Where is that coming from. We are talking about people that had nothing looting things from offices things that in most cases they cannot even use (i.e. - the plastic flowers) or basic items such as air conditioners or a desk. These are not future black marketeers, these are people who had nothing taking a piece of something, anything, back from those that had everything.
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kiara
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posted on April 10, 2003 12:34:14 PM new
The looting will have to stop and some law and order established quickly.
They are looting mattresses and much needed medical equipment from hospitals and some have been forced to close now.
Relief workers are unable to do their job and bring in much needed supplies.
They may not have had anything but looting now will never make up for that.
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neonmania
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posted on April 10, 2003 12:47:07 PM new
You know, it is very easy for us sit sit back here in the comfort of our homes and play on oir computers and try to apply logic to their actions but it's not about making up for the things that they dont have. It's about owning a piece of those that withheld so such from them.
I have heard about looting of government offices, officials homes and some of the more upscale hotels and a few stores, but I had not read or seen anything about looting of the hospitals.
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kiara
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posted on April 10, 2003 12:51:36 PM new
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s829644.htm
The above link has a story on the hospitals being looted. It has been mentioned on news stories for several days now.
My point is that they will have to try to stop all looting as it will only get more out of control and cause further problems. And yes, they are worried lots about the black market.
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kiara
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posted on April 10, 2003 01:05:49 PM new
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,933876,00.html
This is an interesting page about the antiquities in Iraq and the danger of looting and the black market.
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wgm
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posted on April 10, 2003 01:16:08 PM new
neon - I do admit it gave me a chuckle when the news reported that they were actually cutting up the carpet in some of the government buildings 
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
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yisgood
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posted on April 10, 2003 01:25:39 PM new
I guess that most of you are pretty young for you to be so surprised. I guess you don't remember the NY blackout of 77. I had the bad luck of having my car get a flat that day. I couldn't budge the lug nuts off. When the guy at the service station started up the device that removes the nuts, all the lights went out and my first thought was the he was somehow responsible. While my brain was still pondering how he could have caused the lights to go out everywhere I looked, a band of teenagers yelled, "We've got a blackout!" and proceeded to loot.
I guess you don't remember the stories of stores looted down to the fixtures. You don't remember the reports of lawlessness that compared NY to Sodom and Gemorrah. Only days later, the liberals were making excuses, "these are poverty-sticken people. They needed to eat and siezed the opportunity."
Give me a break! A mob broke into a car dealership and crashed brand new cars against the walls. Did this help them eat? I can understand (though not condone) stealing food or even stealing an expensive item that can be sold and the money used for food. But the reports detailed mobs destroying simply for the sake of destruction.
It took perhaps 20 seconds for NY to turn into a scene out of Escape from NY. Why should the mobs in Iraq, who really are hungry and angry, be any different?
http://www.ccs-digital.com
[email protected]
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Twelvepole
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posted on April 10, 2003 01:35:35 PM new
Looting is not a good thing as others have pointed out here, however does seem like poetic justice when one of the No War embassies get looted.
They are going to be bringing in MP's and other Law enforcement measures to stop the looting or at least slow it down... after all you can't eat a computer.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... 
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neonmania
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posted on April 10, 2003 01:53:40 PM new
Y - I don't need to remember the 77 blackout in NY - I lived in LA during the riots and the looting there. That type of looting is an entirely different matter. the majority of that was flt out destructive thieves stealing for no reason other than personal gain.
The looting in Iraq does need to be brought under control but when they are going after goverment offices, they are attacking the symbols of their opression.
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colin
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posted on April 10, 2003 05:18:29 PM new
The looting is a bad thing.
As far as the antiquities of Iraq, They should be on ebay by the end of the month.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
[ edited by colin on Apr 11, 2003 03:14 AM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on April 10, 2003 05:56:40 PM new
Children will be learning that theft is OK.
Helen
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dadofstickboy
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posted on April 10, 2003 06:13:25 PM new
The little *tikes* have been learning that throwing people in wood chippers is OK!
Which would you prefer?
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Helenjw
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posted on April 10, 2003 06:53:47 PM new
dadofstickboy
If we assume that the "little tykes" have learned that, do you want to add theft to their education?
Helen
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Helenjw
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posted on April 10, 2003 07:01:00 PM new
Iraqis lament looting, senseless destruction
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colin
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posted on April 10, 2003 07:29:36 PM new
I agree with Helen. We should have nuked them and then this looting wouldn't be happening.
Their moral would be up to par with Allah.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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Helenjw
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posted on April 10, 2003 07:46:33 PM new
LOL...I could use a friend or two but I can't go along with that.
Helen
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profe51
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posted on April 10, 2003 08:44:03 PM new
How will WE, the only "lawful" presence in Iraq, control the looting? What do we have to use besides bullets? Are we going to arrest non-combatant citizens for looting?...and how far will all our good will go when we begin doing that? Looks like a sticky one to me.
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meadowlark
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posted on April 10, 2003 09:59:21 PM new
I heard on network news that both the French and German embassies had been looted. They showed looters in a high-ranking official's home as well. The looting shown was mostly slowly systematic, and it was obvious that the people wanted the goods either to sell or place in their homes. Some others were bent on destroying the small amount that looters left behind. The looters took even the toilets, sinks, etc.
What I thought later that was actually hilarious was the Iraqi man on the street later profusely thanking "the whole world" from coming and freeing Iraq! Obviuosly, he was not well-informed. Yet.
Our troops are not trained to police and we do not want them to appear as an occupying force, so have stood back and not interfered with the looting. Order will be restored, but obviously the Iraqis have a lot of work ahead.
I heard the leader of their parliament in the south, or whatver it's called(?) in an interview agreeing to work with the Americans to help restablish order. He seemed humble and more interested in helping his country than regaining power. Maybe.
Patty
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calamity49
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posted on April 11, 2003 02:12:29 AM new
I got a chuckle out of it. Glad someome else noticed.
As far as the looting goes. In my opinion, they are taking what is theirs from the government buildings and the official's homes. They earned it with the pain and poverty forced upon them by Saddam and crew . I haven't seen anything about looting stores or regular homes, at least in Baghdad.
I just wish we had shot Saddam off of the horse instead of both. That was a beautiful statue of a horse. Somebody did a really good job on it.
calamity
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meadowlark
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posted on April 11, 2003 02:30:28 AM new
I just wish we had shot Saddam off of the horse instead of both. That was a beautiful statue of a horse.
Yeah, the horse probably could have doen a better job of running the country!
Patty
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Helenjw
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posted on April 11, 2003 06:33:36 PM new
There's nothing to giggle about.
Security is deteriorating in Baghdad.. All 33 hospitals in the city of over 5 million people have been gutted by looters and as a result are closed. A red cross representative in Baghdad called the problem castastrophic.
Now, there is a effort to restore order by locating Saddam's police force. Isn't that a horrific thought?
And, a journalist in the Beruit area with family and friends in Baghdad fears that another ruthless leader such as Saddam will be installed as the next leader.
My First Day of Freedom
"I hope that Americans do complete the quest for democracy in Arab states, because if Iraq becomes a democracy while the other regimes continue as autocracies, it would be like having a rose among thorns."
"Most of us want to live in a world of democracy. Now I ask the United States to live up to the fullness of its promise; it should not favor the crooks among the opposition leaders simply because they are American allies, since that would create another Saddam Hussein. With these lines, I plead to the American administration and people: do not leave the job half-done."
Hussain Abdul-Hussain
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neonmania
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posted on April 11, 2003 09:40:01 PM new
What is the solution in your eyes. You don't want us there. You want us to leave. You want us to reel in the looting. What do you suggest we do? Call in the teachers? If we are going to instill a sense of trust in the Iraqi people that we are there to help them instill their own government and security forces we are not going to do it by turning our marines into the corner cops.
Remember, we are trying to locate former police officers, not military.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 11, 2003 09:40 PM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on April 12, 2003 10:09:18 AM new
Neonmania,
"What is the solution in your eyes. You don't want us there. You want us to leave. You want us to reel in the looting. What do you suggest we do? Call in the teachers? If we are going to instill a sense of trust in the Iraqi people that we are there to help them instill their own government and security forces we are not going to do it by turning our marines into the corner cops."
I should be asking you this question since you are now in favor of this invasion and I am not. It is the responsibility of the United States under the Geneva Conventions to maintain law and order at this point. Now, only one hospital out of over 30 in a city of 5 million people is operational. According to the Red Cross, supplies cannot be delivered because of looters. While Doctors and nurses are afraid to go to work, Rumsfeld dismisses the situation as only "transitional".
If it is necessary, as you suggest, to allow this mayhem to continue in order to instill trust in the Iraqi people then Rumsfeld has a terrific problem. Furthermore, we are there to install a government of our choosing and if you believe otherwise, you are misinformed. The choice of government should instead be led by the international community.
Hopefully, the killing will end soon but this invasion is not over yet and it may require years of low level combat.
Rumsfeld protected the oil companies and the oil ministry...he should be able to protect the hospitals.
I am involved in some tax work this week and I won't be able to answer your "questions".
BTW...Your question to possibly call in the teachers makes no sense whatsoever. What is the relevance of that remark?
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calamity49
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posted on April 12, 2003 11:25:45 AM new
First of all I have to correct myself on the people only looting government buildings.(Smack Smack). The looting has gotten out of hand now but I see hope. The non looters are taking matters into their own hands and this morning I heard that some of the Iraqi police have approached the troops and are forming a coalition to patrol the streets. I think this will go far in calming things down.
calamity
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Twelvepole
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posted on April 12, 2003 12:20:16 PM new
As usual another "hit" and run post by Helen...
Helen, you talk about hospitals being closed and we are reponsible for them... maybe... but not under the geneva convention... Iraq is not a conqured nation...
No matter what you may like to think, besides your buddies in SF are causing trouble on the docks and some of that is humanitarian aid... go figure.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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neonmania
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posted on April 12, 2003 03:49:39 PM new
::I should be asking you this question since you are now in favor of this invasion and I am not.::
I asked for your suggestion because as uual, you complained about actions being taken without offering a viable solution.
::If it is necessary, as you suggest, to allow this mayhem to continue in order to instill trust in the Iraqi people then Rumsfeld has a terrific problem. ::
No, you misinterppret my statement. I do not feel that the looting should be allowed to continue. I infact abhor that not only the hospitalsbut also yesterday, the National Museum are being looted. It has gone from a natural outpouring and release of anger directed at the homes and offices of the peoples oppressors to areas vital for the safety of the people as well as the cultural integrity of an ancient land. However, we must tread lightly to keep the newfound support of the people between prtecting what is theirs and appearing as the invading oppressors they were told we would be. Our best bet is to incorporate the Iraqi's themselves into the security force.
::I am involved in some tax work this week and I won't be able to answer your "questions". ::
I've heard that before.. you have time for flirting the newcomers though 
::BTW...Your question to possibly call in the teachers makes no sense whatsoever. What is the relevance of that remark? ::
It's called sarcasm Helen. You objected to using police for security, I wondered which group it was you preferred.
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CBlev65252
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posted on April 12, 2003 04:12:43 PM new
The looting just shows they aren't all that different than some Americans. The same thing has happened here: The Hough Riots in 1966 in Cleveland, Ohio and 1943 Detroit Race riots are just two of a number of incidents where during extreme chaos, looting took place. It's not right by any means, but it does happen all over the world. Just so happens this is more visible and it is happening now rather than "back then".
I wonder who will be footing the bill to make things right again, hmmm? No, I didn't find any of the looting funny in the lease.
 Cheryl
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Helenjw
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posted on April 12, 2003 05:49:48 PM new
neonmania...about saddam's police
I said that there is an effort to restore order by locating Saddam's police force. Then, I said, Isn't that a horrific thought?
You wrongly interpreted that statement to indicate that I object to using police for security
LOL!
Maybe Saddam's community police are nice guys, but I rather doubt it.
Helen
punctuation edit
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 12, 2003 05:53 PM ]
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