posted on July 18, 2001 02:06:34 PM new
Hi purplehaze1967,
Ritadooley was advised why the card was charged. I hope she will post her actions to make it more clear (she was notified by customer service today about the issue).
posted on July 18, 2001 02:08:19 PM newI don't keep account records on file for cases that were directed to another department. I would be bogged down with the record-keeping and I want to be aware of the reason for the actions taken.
My post was not just about you, but about the whole "We lost your fax. Please re-send your proof." runaround. Then the ignored phone calls and e-mails. Not a good way to treat customers, even if this was a $25 matter. For $10,000, things should be a heck of a lot tighter than that...
posted on July 18, 2001 02:11:52 PM newRitadooley was advised why the card was charged. I hope she will post her actions to make it more clear (she was notified by customer service today about the issue).
Rita, can you elaborate? I'd like to hear it...but charging a credit card without authorization is pretty deceptive.
posted on July 18, 2001 06:09:26 PM new
CLARIFICATION - I am NOT hidding anything in the story!! Some of you misunderstood me, might be because you have no experience on being "RESTRICTED" and "LOCKED" by Paypal.
I got tens of "pending reverse" after my account is "LOCKED" by Paypal.
My account was "RESTRICTED" since May, then become "LOCKED" since June.
I guess when an account is "LOCKED", all transactions with funds remaining on the account become "pending reverse".
I can only guess this cause-and-effect for three reasons:
1. I asked Paypal why they NEVER reply.
2. Many of the old customers asked me what happened to the transactions. They offered re-paying me if the funds do reverse back to them.
3. I have worked with those old customers for over a year over Paypal. They are independent retailers spreading across the nations of US and other countries. They have not changed their paypal method. They are still using their paypal account. If they have fraud, how could they all do it together on me in the same period of time?
Remind some of you in the board that "RESTRICTED" AND "LOCKED" are two totally different meansures from PP. When I am "LOCKED", I am unable to even log in the account, let along seeing any account details.
===
roofguy
-----------------------------------
The issue clearly focuses on those tens of pending reversed transactions. That's a lot more than before.
Can you tell us more about them?
-----------------------------------
To roofguy:
1. I think I am telling everything I know. There are things I wish to know and tell but Paypal is holding out. That's what Paypal makes people mad in this and other boards. I don't, and never, want to hid things from people. If you think I am, please tell me specifically what I am missing.
2. I guess you are an insider of Paypal. According to what you can find out, what will happen to a paid transaction, with funds remain on account, when the account is "LOCKED"?
posted on July 18, 2001 06:24:25 PM new
ChowYYY have you contacted the better business bureau of silicon valley? I think they will be of help to you. I have addes their web address below.
Custom Report
PayPal acts as a third party between the recipient and the sender of an online money transaction. Our file experience shows that PayPal has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to a pattern of complaints alleging that the company requires too much personal information in order to withdraw funds and that the consumer is unable to reach a customer service representative. The company responds to all complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau.
posted on July 18, 2001 07:38:21 PM new
I thought my reply didn't go through so I retype it again, until I realized that the thread has made two pages. Sorry if this confuses.
I hate long thread. I hope the story will end ASAP.
Anyway I take the chance to respose to some of you I missed to care on last message.
To chum: I submitted to BBB. They gave only an email telling the case is filed and investigation will take place ... etc. It was two weeks ago and I got no further reply.
To jrb3: My transactions are "pending reversed", not "chargeback". My customers never initiated those.
To camachinist: where are those boards which PPDamon frequent?
To Damon: I have emailed you just now. Please check.
[ edited by ChowYYY on Jul 18, 2001 08:00 PM ]
posted on July 18, 2001 10:19:02 PM new
To Paypal Damon:
Since you forwarded my letter to someone else, I respectably request that you don't refer or comment about my account since I've already told you I DID NOT USE INSTANT TRANSFER and account has been CLOSED!!!
To purplehaze:
Yes they did charge my credit card after account HAS BEEN closed. All of this is making me physically sick. I am disabled and this is really upsetting me. I've had enough!
posted on July 19, 2001 08:18:01 AM new1. I think I am telling everything I know. There are things I wish to know and tell but Paypal is holding out. That's what Paypal makes people mad in this and other boards. I don't, and never, want to hid things from people. If you think I am, please tell me specifically what I am missing.
I've not suggested you are hiding things. I did observe a difference between three transactions at issue as first described, and tens of transactions now. We'll agree, a seller with tens of transactions in pending reversal needs to be stopped cold.
But let's make sure that we have your story correctly.
-you were sailing along, doing fine, with exactly three transactions where you had been protected from chargeback by PayPal, having shown proof of shipment
-based on these three transactions, PayPal restricted your account
-after it was restricted, tens of customers paid into your account. Your account built up to some $10,000.
-While your PayPal account was restricted, you did not ship the buyer's purchase
-the buyers began to dispute the charges with PayPal and/or their credit card companies, due to non-shipment
-PayPal observed $10,000 worth of non-shipment disputes, tens of transactions, and locked your account.
posted on July 19, 2001 08:36:43 AM newSince you forwarded my letter to someone else, I respectably request that you don't refer or comment about my account since I've already told you I DID NOT USE INSTANT TRANSFER and account has been CLOSED!!!
Consider a pattern we have seen here before:
1. Poster makes wild accusation
2. Damon tracks things down
3. Damon offers to explain, but needs poster's permission
4. the end. We never hear from that poster again. We never hear the whole story either.
We now see a far more entertaining alternative:
4. Poster posts a refusal of permission for Damon to post the whole story
5. Poster switches switches the accusation to "PayPal is making me sick" and "PayPal is upsetting the disabled", and continues on.
posted on July 19, 2001 10:14:03 AM new
It's a shame when people get entertainment out of other people's problems and make light of a situation. They need to get a life then maybe they would understand that people have problems all the time. This "POSTER" has decided to let BBB handle it. you don't know Jack unless you've been in our place at one time. This board is for people to discuss some of this problems that we have in common. Since some of this Paypal defenders have over 300 posts on Auction watch, They need to get a real life
posted on July 19, 2001 12:51:42 PM new
I for one can back up Chow as to how "payponzi" operates.they are still reversing accounts on me that go back to Dec.2000 and believe it or not their regular customers that are still doing business with me.Here's how it went with me.
On September 14.2000, I opened an account with Paypal. At that time it was for the purpose of transferring moneys to people or business programs I wanted to get into on the Internet. Somewhere around Oct. 15.2000 an Internet friend suggested that people were having trouble funding there egold accounts and it might be a business I might think about. As a semiretired businessman, because of a heart condition, I researched this and found that many of the people needing there gold accounts funded had paypal accounts also. Subsequently I opened an egold account and funded it with a thousand dollars. I started advertising on my web page that I could help people change their dollars into gold. Business started to move slowly until people realized that I made fast transactions through Paypal and was honest. My reputation grew rapidly and soon I was doing $200,000.00 a month in transactions with Paypal alone. Somewhere around Christmas I got a charge back notice saying that I was in receipt of potentially fraudulent funds. They "Paypal" asked for certain information in regard to the account named, which I provided. When I called they said it was under investigation. As time went on day by day these transactions kept coming in to the tune of over $20,000.00 worth of so-called fraudulent funds "stolen credit cards." My calls to Paypal only resulted in being passed from one clerk to another with no results. When I did finally get to middle management personnel all I received was a canned speech but no help.They"Paypal" accepted the credit cards and in return sent me a confirmation e-mail stating "you've got cash." The money was in their accounts and three to six weeks later Paypal is saying the accounts were no good. I checked some accounts and found this to be wrong. These people proved that Paypal had debited their accounts and had their monies.
In late January they gave me another support number to call saying I had a "red carpet" account, that way I could speak with management people, a week later they froze my account. This did not allow me to make any transactions but allowed people to make deposits into my account, which I requested be stopped until our problem was resolved. They refused to do this and took other peoples money to satisfy the negative balance in my account. I requested this by email and phone on February 5. My account became positive and they opened it. I started transferring gold into my customers accounts again trying to catch up and then they "locked" my account. As of today they have me +$20,000.00 out of pocket money and a negative balance of somewhere in the $9,000.00 range.
Now they are e-mailing my customers saying they should file fraud charges against me. Also telling them that they have had many complaints against my account and basically that I'm the crook. My customers are behind me and now send me monies in other ways. This I have proof of. see attachment
My point is Paypal is not what they say they are. As a supposed financial institution or so, the only thing they are concerned with is getting accounts which adds up to transaction fees regardless of whether they are legitimate or not. I now see that their policies are strictly set up to protect themselves not there legitimate customers. Their security is at best nonexistent.
1. I did not accept the accounts THEY DID
2. I did not have access to there bank accounts or credit cards. THEY DID
3. I kept my commitment to my customers THEY DIDN'T
4. I researched what accounts I could and proved them wrong THEY DIDN'T
In conclusion I believe they are a young company with growing pains and I believe they should be responsible for their mistakes. If they do not wish to come to satisfactory terms then my only recourse will be to take legal action against them and vigorously inform those on the Internet as to my situation so this does not happen to them.
March 10.2001
UPDATE:
After many hours of telephone conversations with a Mr. Sandeep Lal Paypal's representative my ACCT now is $31,083.45 in arrears and my negative balance has grown to $12,922.63. Each time paypal sends monies back to a customer that sent me money after I asked that they block my account from accepting monies they raise the negative balance. Mr. Sandeep tells me that paypals board of directors would like to have me as a customer and would agree to let me payoff the negative $12,900.00 over a 6 month period. WOW THAT'S MIGHTY NICE OF THEM. They also tell me that as in the past I would be responsible for those accounts that wanted to claim a charge back anytime within a 3-6 month period, and as I was before charge backs from an account that received funds through 2-3 other accounts that were charged back.
WHEW they have some system of accounting and here are some examples
In February I received these contacts from my customers
One customer sent me a fax showing his credit card statement showing 2 transactions charging him for monies he sent me PAYPAL CHARGED THEM BACK ON ME
Another told me her husband made the transfer and she called paypal. NOW SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE MONEY AND I DON'T, THAT LEAVES ONLY ONE PLACE THE MONEY IS AT "PAYPAL"
Another called me from Alaska to tell me his funds were "legit".-----It was only $56.50 from his "VERIFIED" account and a verified shipping address.
Another called to tell me that his was made by credit card but paypal debited his checking account creating a negative balance in his account which cost him $25.00 service charge.
Another customer emailed me to tell me that when he inquired as to why they deemed his funds to be "fraudulent" they closed it and would not answer emails to them as to why it was closed.
They "PAYPAL" have consistently took other peoples money to payback supposedly "FRAUDULENT FUNDS" and then charged me for them when I told them I would file theft of funds charges against them.
By the way, in one of the conversations I had with Paypal's representative I was actually asked to help them in investigating these accounts.
What I can't believe is that in this day and age of government regulations they are seemingly unregulated and can change their "terms of service" as they see fit to protect themselves, with total disregard to their customers.
I guess I have no other choice at this time but to seek the help of my attorney generals office as well as my lawyer. In the mean time I will diligently use my time to try and notify my fellow Internet friends and their friends of the possibilities of doing business with this unregulated Internet entity.
FROM Damien Cave's article FEB.23,2001 (salon.com)
Ultimately, no company that processes $7 million in transactions every day, as PayPal claims to do, deserves a free ride, says Ken Thomas, a finance professor at the Wharton School of Business. Because PayPal essentially works like a bank -- thriving in an industry where "any type of activity involving payments is heavily regulated simply because issues of public confidence are involved," he says -- they should be treated as a bank. Changing the laws, or persuading PayPal to buy a bank charter may be difficult, slow and expensive but until then, Thiel and his 575 employees aren't just asking that users endure a few technical difficulties. They're asking for nothing less than blind, pre-Depression trust.
"This is banking circa 1928," says Tom McGrath, managing partner of Bank Earnings International (BEI), a banking consulting company. "It's backwards. They could take all these customers' dollars and misapply them, so the money isn't available when the person wants it. They could be insolvent and no one would ever know."
As one FTC lawyer put it, "if they filed for bankruptcy tomorrow, no one knows what would happen to their accounts."
forget about the better business you need to get in touch with the California Attorney Generals office,it will help with their already ongoing investigation
posted on July 21, 2001 04:39:31 AM new
To roofguy:
>I've not suggested you are hiding things. I
> did observe a difference between three
> transactions at issue as first described,
You misunderstood the story. As explained in follows.
> and tens of transactions now. We'll agree,
> a seller with tens of transactions in
> pending reversal needs to be stopped cold.
This is your major misunderstanding. The tens of pending reversals occured AFTER my account is locked, not BEFORE.
I guess this is a normal system event in paypal and which will happen to whoever's account when this is locaked or terminated. If an account is terminated those un-transfered transaction naturally pending for reverse or forward. I asked Paypal to confirm but they never reply.
> But let's make sure that we have your
> story correctly.
> -you were sailing along, doing fine, with
> exactly three transactions where you had
> been protected from chargeback by PayPal,
> having shown proof of shipment
Yes. But I need to check if this is three or two. I believe this is not critical in this story.
> -based on these three transactions, PayPal
> restricted your account
If you are refering the restriction occured in May 2001, I am not sure. Paypal never tell me despite having been asked for many times. But I guess not. Because those three transactions were history dated back early this year and before. My account operated smoothly after that three transactions for few months.
> -after it was restricted, tens of
> customers paid into your account. Your
> account built up to some $10,000.
Wrong picture.
When it was restricted in May I have a couple of thousands in the account, and another couple of thousands on the way to my bank. Once the account was restricted the funds on the way to bank revered to my paypal account, and made the balance in paypal about $5000+. That number was accumulated from about 20 of customers.
When the restriction took place I asked Paypal about the reason. They never gave any solid answer, just told me an investigation was undertaken. As I was so confident that I am on a decent business. I kept taking new orders and allowed people to send money to my paypal account. I believed the restriction would left soon like it previously did.
So some other 20 new transactions took place and built the balance to over $10,000. Everything stopped when the account was locked in June. I can't even login since then.
> -While your PayPal account was restricted,
> you did not ship the buyer's purchase
Wrong.
I shipped to every order paid, before or after the restriction. I have shipping proof to every of the transaction.
> -the buyers began to dispute the charges
> with PayPal and/or their credit card
> companies, due to non-shipment
Wrong.
I spoke to some of those customers. They don't have a clue on what is happening. They never make any complaint on me.
> -PayPal observed $10,000 worth of non-
> shipment disputes, tens of transactions,
> and locked your account.
> Is that what happened?
Wrong. You misunderstood from half the way so you made a wrong deduction.
Might be I made a bad presentation in the first place. Thanks for giving me a chance to further clarify.
======
To jrb3
> Once again I feel we are not being told
> the whole story.
Would it be because you misunderstood like roofguy? You are welcome to ask specific questions.
> They normally neglect to state which TOS
> they didn't follow or what questionable
> activities were taking place.
If we have a clue, we won't make such noise.
If you were arrested by police one day when you think you are a decent citizen and never committed a crime, would you be able to tell the police what you are violating?
Naturally you would ask the police what was the problem. If the police could tell you the problem and it did exist, you would think you deserved it. But what would you feel if the police don't say a word and just put you straight to cell?
This is what paypal is doing to me. They never tell you what is the problem. They just keep saying an investigation is ongoing, or simply don't response.
In Hong Kong, police can't detain a suspect without any charge for over 24 hours. Hong Kong has human rights and legal protection.
I am detained in cell by paypal for over a month without any charge, and even worst they are taking all my belongings.
> And once again when questioned on what the
> real story is a blow off response is given.
Are you saying me? Sorry if I gave you this feeling. At times we may have bad temper. Afterall that is $10,000+. Put yourself in my shoes.
I am doing my best to convey the true story. Please let me know if you see any place needing further clarification.
> Hey if you're going to coplain at least be
> honest and tell the whole story.
I hope my answers to roofguy help to clear your doubt. If not, please be specific.
posted on August 3, 2001 06:11:59 PM new
Hi Purplehaze,
My situation was resolved, but not because Paypal straightened things out. My bank did.
They did charge my credit card AFTER my account was closed. But then, the transaction I made was billed on my credit card in the first place but they just took the money out of my bank account when there was a problem with my card. It was expired but I updated it that same day. It was wrong for them to take the money out of my closed account without my knowledge, considering I did owe the money they took. There's a possibility they can just charge my credit card again for some other mistake, cause they still have my credit card number. I'm not happy about the things Paypal did but I'm satisfied with how things turned out. I will NEVER use them again. I did file a complaint with BBB.
posted on August 3, 2001 06:32:14 PM new
Rita do your self a favor call your credit card company immediately and tell them not to accept any transactions from paypal. You might have to send it in writing but they will stop any transactions in the mean time. Please don't wait credit card companies run 24/7
posted on August 4, 2001 11:05:22 AM new
Hello Everyone,
I have deleted two posts because they contained an email address in them (looked like someone that was sent money) and personal info is not allowed on these boards.
posted on August 4, 2001 11:03:44 PM new
To: Club1man,
Thanks for the info. Ididn't want to have to go change my credit card then have to change it on all other things so I left it as it is. I've worried about them charging other stuff since they still have my Credit Card number. If they do I file fraud charges.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:29:44 AM new
Paypal told me on July 30 that they will return all my money (exact amount given) after August 14. I look desperately forward to the date.
posted on August 8, 2001 05:55:16 AM new
Wow...let me get this straight.
PayPal decided, in early May, to lock your account. No reason was given at that time, or at any time throughout this ordeal.
Chow, you try to deal with PayPal customer service, but find them non-responsive and inept every time.
Phone calls and e-mails are ignored, and you are asked to send and re-send basic information time and again.
Now, 3.5 months later, PayPal 'decides' to let you have your money, still offering no explanation as to what happened to cause this situation. PayPal was able to earn interest all the while they had control of your funds.
Roofguy or ppd, please explain to us why this situation is acceptable.
