posted on December 28, 2008 10:53:41 AM new
Republicans are blinded by love.
Lefties just don't have the same feeling about America as the hard right does.
Joel Stein
December 26, 2008
I don't love America. That's what conservatives are always telling liberals like me. Their love, they insist, is truer, deeper and more complete. Then liberals, like all people who are accused of not loving something, stammer, get defensive and try to have sex with America even though America will then accuse us of wanting it for its body and not its soul. When America gets like that, there's no winning.
But I've come to believe conservatives are right. They do love America more. Sure, we liberals claim that our love is deeper because we seek to improve the United States by pointing out its flaws. But calling your wife fat isn't love. True love is the blind belief that your child is the smartest, cutest, most charming person in the world, one you would gladly die for. I'm more in "like" with my country.
Fox News' Sean Hannity loves this country so much, he did an entire episode of "Hannity's America" titled "The Greatest Nation on Earth." In that one hour he said, several times, "the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the Earth." One of the surest signs of love is it makes you talk stupid.
Conservatives feel personally blessed to have been born in the only country worth living in. I, on the other hand, just feel lucky to have grown up in a wealthy democracy. If it had been Australia, Britain, Ireland, Canada, Italy, Spain, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan, Israel or one of those Scandinavian countries with more relaxed attitudes toward sex, that would have been fine with me too.
When a Democrat loses the presidential race, real lefties talk a lot about moving to Canada. When Republicans lose, they don't do that. Though, to be fair, they don't have a lot of nearby conservative options. Not even Hannity is a committed enough conservative to yell, "If Obama wins, I'm moving to Singapore."
This doesn't mean I'm not fascinated by American history, impressed by our Constitution or don't appreciate our optimism and entrepreneurial spirit. In fact, I love everything Hannity listed on his TV special other than Madonna. But there are plenty of things I don't like about America: our foreign policy, our religious fundamentalism, our provincialism, our intellectual laziness, our acceptance of sweat suits in public.
When I ran the idea that liberals don't love America as much as conservatives by talk-show host Glenn Beck, who will move from CNN Headline News to Fox News next month, he totally agreed with me, which is precisely why I called him. "It's absolutely true, deep love. As a parent loves a child," he said. "But I think liberals laugh that off, the way the rest of the country laughs off the love Texans have for their state. Texans don't think, 'Oklahoma, you suck.' Well, yes they do -- but they don't think other states suck. They just have a love for the republic of Texas. I don't have disdain for other countries. Well, except for France."
I asked Beck why Democrats rarely share his overwhelming sense of American exceptionalism and Francophobia. "I think it's because in the late 1800s up until the 1930s, the progressive movement started to think the European ideals are pretty good, that it's one big world," he said. "Well, it's not. If you look at all the countries like people, there are differences between people. And I happen to like this person the best." When I look at the countries like people, I love Sweden the best.
I accused Beck of loving America just out of birthplace convenience, which is kind of like loving the girl who happens to sit in front of you in homeroom. "If I were born in Great Britain and read about Britain and America, I'd love the values and principles and the men who founded this country," he said. "I love that we crossed these mountains and didn't know what was on the other side. I love that the Pilgrims didn't want to come here, but they came here because they felt prompted to by God. There's always been a spirit of adventure and awe in this land. And I don't think any other country has that." Beck, it seemed, loves America the same way little boys love camping.
Despite Beck's rationalization, I still think conservatives love America for the same tribalistic reasons people love whatever groups they belong to. These are the people who are sure Christianity is the only right religion, that America is the best country, that the Republicans have the only good candidates, that gays have cooties.
I wish I felt such certainty. Sure, it makes life less interesting and nuanced, and absolute conviction can lead to dangerous extremism, but I suspect it makes people happier. I'll never experience the joy of Hannity-level patriotism. I'm the type who always wonders if some other idea or place or system is better and I'm missing out. And, as I figured out shortly after meeting my wife, that is no way to love.
--
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posted on December 28, 2008 04:10:53 PM new
Capolady,
Rather than having an unconditional love for the mess that George Bush has left, I believe that it would be more appropriate to say that we have a special allegiance toward our country; the place where we live and because of this allegiance we intend to work toward improving it rather than leaving as you suggest. Most people all over the world share this kind of feeling toward their country of origin or place where they live.
posted on December 28, 2008 04:57:27 PM new
Helen has it exactly right. We have an allegiance to our country and want to help it get even better.
Think about a family situation: You love all your children, but they are not all perfect! While they're still capable of learning, good parents try to improve them, correct their language, correct their table manners, etc. To neglect responsibility would be child abuse.
We love our country! But it's not up to the standards of some of us, and we'd like to change things. That's all.
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posted on December 28, 2008 06:18:03 PM new
When I was in high school, the Vietnam war and mandatory military service for those classmates who could not afford college made me question my patriotism and love for my country. In 1971 I spent a year abroad and teared up every time I heard Simon & Garfunkel's "America". I loved and missed the freeways, the vastness and diversity of our landscape and people. I love America, not because we are the best and most rightous, but because we want to be. As I've stated in other posts, Eisenhower is one of my favorite presidents. While looking for an appropriate quote, I found this page http://www.usa-patriotism.com/quotes/eisenhower.htm, with this quote "Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion" and "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed".
posted on December 29, 2008 11:00:50 AM new
Pixi: I really like the Eisenhower quotes. Would you mind if I used one of them for a tagline here? (As you'll see, I've already started, LOL.) ~Adele
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"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who * * *dared to dissent* * * from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, * * *may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."* * * --Eisenhower
[ edited by roadsmith on Dec 29, 2008 11:01 AM ]
posted on December 29, 2008 08:09:43 PM new
"mandatory military service for those classmates who could not afford college"
Wrong again.
""Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed"
Totally moronic when viewed in the retrospect of history. The basis of liberalism includes massive amounts of wishful thinking like ignoring Hitler or Stalin and hoping the bad man goes away.
The fatal flaw of Liberalism whether socioeconomic or political is that everybody is the same. The inability to comprehend that someone will commit mass murder simply because he wants to and/or has the capability absolutely escapes them. They are left dumbfounded amongst the corpses. You could easily extend this metaphor to education and social services.
Meanwhile you can all sit around and wait for someone to feed you.
(PS: THAT hasn't worked since the beginning of time either.)
posted on December 29, 2008 09:32:28 PM new
Squirrel: Every war is hard on human beings, and whether it's started by a demonic idiot or entered into, defensively, by a nation like the U.S., it's still true that the money spent by idiot or nation could feed and clothe thousands. I don't think Pixi was saying all war is absolutely wrong, but it is BAD for people.
And I seem to remember what Pixi remembers about the draft (Vietnam War). Young men in college were the very last to be drafted; it was those who couldn't afford or didn't want to attend college who were drafted first.
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"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who ***dared to dissent*** from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, ***may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."*** --Eisenhower
posted on December 29, 2008 11:47:40 PM new
Squirrel, I'm so sure Eisenhower knew much more about fighting Hitler than you do. Think twice about who you are calling a bleeding liberal. Add history to Math and Science in the long list of topics that Squirrels know nothing about.
Edited to add for the young or totally oblivious to history: During WWII Eisenhower served as Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe, with responsibility for planning and supervising the successful invasion of France and Germany in 1944–45. He was courted by both Republican and Democrat parties to run as President. A military hero, he warned US citizens to resist the military industrial machine that fed on global discourse to feed the military budgets, He felt that defense monies were better spent on internal infrastructures. We have him to thank for our interstate highway systems. Eisenhower was a top-rated military man, not soft on war, but truly cognizant of its consequences and of the profiteers who rode on its tail. Please read the rest of his quotes.
[ edited by pixiamom on Dec 30, 2008 12:21 AM ]
posted on December 30, 2008 06:45:06 PM newMeanwhile you can all sit around and wait for someone to feed you.
I feed myself, my family and my neighbors squirrel, with food I raise, slaughter, preserve and prepare.
Your stereotypes are childish and absurd.
"mandatory military service for those classmates who could not afford college" Wrong again.
Please explain what, precisely is wrong about that. Were you alive during Viet Nam? Old enough to sweat the draft? If you were, you know that it is no exaggeration at all that those eligible, healthy men who did not have college deferments were the first to be drafted.
posted on December 31, 2008 07:17:35 AM new
What is precisely wrong?? There was no mandatory service for non-students. There was a draft.
And those who saw service were generally reflective of the national population in almost every social and economic measurement.
And the "stereotypes" are no more invalid than stupid comments like "don't build bombs, build peace bridges" or whatever lame "rifles into ploughshares" metaphors you want to chant.
posted on December 31, 2008 08:45:12 AM new
"What is precisely wrong?? There was no mandatory service for non-students. There was a draft."
The draft is mandatory, is it not? If you were drafted and did not have a college or medical deferment, you were gone. People who could afford college or were smart enough to get a scholarship were deferred. All others were drafted into service--so it was mandatory for them.
posted on January 2, 2009 05:58:39 PM new
Desquirrel keep the faith, this is the America real AMERICANS love. The non believers have nothing to believe in but themselves.
posted on January 2, 2009 06:34:37 PM new
"this is the America real AMERICANS love. The non believers have nothing to believe in but themselves."
What is a real American? Someone who agrees with you, I bet.
My definition of a real American is someone who was born here, or even someone who was not born here, but emigrated to this country and became a naturalized citizen. These Americans love their country, despite suffering the mistakes of an evil administration. These Americans believe that anyone can voice his or her opinion (even you) and not be called un-American. These real Americans believe there is room here for all ethnic,religious, racial,philosophical and political backgrounds.
A real American to you is someone who is in lockstep with the conservative party, favors war to solve every international problem, believes in the suspension of civil rights, even Gitmo torture when "necessary."
Well, this real American says you are free to believe what you want and still be an American. I just thank my lucky stars that we will have a president who does not think like you.
posted on January 2, 2009 09:43:32 PM new
"If you were drafted and did not have a college or medical deferment, you were gone. People who could afford college or were smart enough to get a scholarship were deferred. All others were drafted into service--so it was mandatory for them."
So let me get this straight. If you were of age and didn't go to college, you got drafted, correct>
Every time I say "they couldn't possibly be that stupid", you people go and lower the bar again.
"favors war to solve every international problem"
Except for the 'every' stupidity, this is called reality. Far worse, (both in practical terms and body count) is the belief that "diplomacy can solve all issues". This again goes back to the liberal denial factor that some people just want to harm you for fun and/or profit alone.
And I know how you libs get confused by "numbers and stuff", but a few "poor squirrel" figures for the mentally challenged:
1) ONE THIRD of Vietnam vets were drafted. And that was a small fraction of the pool of people eligible.
2) During the Vietnam War, almost 80 percent of those who enlisted had high school diplomas, and the percentage was higher for draftees -- even though, at the time, only 65 percent of military-age males had a high school diploma.
3)Throughout the Vietnam era, the median education level of the enlisted man was about 13 years. Proportionately, three times as many college graduates served in Vietnam than in WWII.
4)Another common assumption: The war in Vietnam was fought by youngsters wet behind the ears, who died as teenagers barely old enough to shave. In fact, more 52-year-olds (22) died in Vietnam than 17-year-olds (12). An analysis of data from the Department of Defense shows the average age of men killed in Vietnam was 22.8 years, or almost 23 years old.
5)Though the notion persists that those who died in Vietnam were mostly members of a minority group, it's not true. About 5 percent of KIAs were Hispanic and 12.5 percent were black -- making both minorities slightly under-represented in their proportion of draft-age males in the national population.
You might want to check with Michael Moore or whoever you get your info from, but these come from Defense Dept. stats.
And if you want to go into the chants about the Vets who were so damaged by "unjust service" they went crazy, took drugs, or committed crimes and went to jail, you and Mikey might be VERY surprised with the comparable statistics there also.
posted on January 3, 2009 07:54:23 AM new
The Vietnam-era draft, said the commanding officer in Vietnam, William Westmoreland, was "discriminatory, undemocratic and resulted in the war being fought by the poor man's son." During the Vietnam War 27 million men were eligible for the draft (women were not drafted). Some 2.2 million men were drafted and 8.7 million voluntarily enlisted. Some 16 million men (59 percent of draft-aged men) received deferments, exemptions, or disqualifications-they had the right connections or occupations, attended college, or had physical problems that allowed them to avoid military service. Another 500,000 resisted or evaded the draft by declaring themselves conscientious objectors, hiding, or going to Canada. (In contrast, about 75 percent of the men born between 1919 and 1926 served in World War II, and most of the rest were exempted only for physical or mental handicaps.)
"The Vietnam War was fought by working-class teenagers," writes Loren Baritz in his book Backfire: A History of How American Culture Led Us into Vietnam and Made Us Fight the Way We Did. "The entire nation went to war, except for the rich, the middle class, the vast majority of college students, and individuals who objected to war, or who objected to that war." Of course there were exceptions like John Kerry, who, despite coming from a wealthy family, enlisted and became a naval lieutenant.
"Poor young Americans, white as well as black and Hispanic, were twice as likely to be drafted and twice as likely to be assigned to combat as wealthier draft-aged youth," says Baritz. "One study of Chicago neighborhoods found that kids from areas with low educational levels were four times as likely to be killed in Vietnam as those from more schooled neighborhoods." While draftees made up 16 percent of battle deaths in 1965, they were 62 percent of deaths in 1969. About 58,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam and another 300,000 were wounded.
squirrel---You know my point was that the draft was mandatory--if you did not have a deferment. As usual, you ignored that so you could participate in your favorite pastime: insulting people who have the nerve to disagree with you. Have fun!
posted on January 3, 2009 01:44:40 PM new
Profe: Is Baxter Black "Reverend Colin," which is above the video?? Is this the fellow who was here a lot?
_____________________
"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who ***dared to dissent*** from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, ***may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."*** --Eisenhower
posted on January 3, 2009 03:04:12 PM new
"squirrel---You know my point was that the draft was mandatory--if you did not have a deferment. As usual, you ignored that so you could participate in your favorite pastime: insulting people who have the nerve to disagree with you. Have fun!"
No Dummy, I can read. You said you either were deferred or went to war, an ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS statement and you were caught. And those who were deferred still had to register for the draft.
And PS: you can post the theories of everybody on the planet. It is not going to change the figures. And the figures say you and your fellow theorists are AGAIN 100% totally wrong.
posted on January 3, 2009 07:04:05 PM new
"No Dummy, I can read"
You are right squirrel--I misspoke or miswrote my thoughts. I should have said that those who did not receive deferrals, were eligible for the draft. If they were drafted, then it was mandatory that they go into the service.
"And PS: you can post the theories of everybody on the planet. It is not going to change the figures. And the figures say you and your fellow theorists are AGAIN 100% totally wrong."
One of "my theorists" includes Gen. William Westmoreland, who is quoted in the first sentence of my post regarding the inequality of the draft.
Instead of your childish name calling, I would appreciate it if you could point out the figures which prove my fellow theorists and I are wrong. And what are we wrong about? I, for one, have not disputed any of your figures, so far.
posted on January 3, 2009 08:52:31 PM new
No roadsmith, that video of Baxter Black was posted on a photo sharing account apparently held by Colin, apparently the same "reverend" Colin who used to spew his bile here. They are not the same person.
Baxter Black used to be a large animal veterinarian and amateur cowboy poet. He had an interesting show on PBS years ago where he went around taking care of people's horses and cows and handing out pithy advice and cowboy wisdom. Then he got real famous for his written commentary on pretty much everything and for his poetry, so he quit doctoring. He lives nearby here on a hobby ranch outside of Benson, although he spent most of his life in NM. I like his cowboy poetry and most of his commentary is pretty funny too. Colin and bear can only dream of using language as well as he does, or for that matter having as good a moustache.
posted on January 5, 2009 07:27:19 AM new
"One of "my theorists" includes Gen. William Westmoreland, who is quoted in the first sentence of my post regarding the inequality of the draft."
I don't care if in another life his name was Jesus Christ.
If you say the Vietnam war was fought mostly by poor uneducated minority teenagers in lieu of others, you are 100% wrong.
AS STATED:
1) Blacks/Hispanics in Vietnam were LESS than their percentage of the total population.
2) The economic makeup of vets was higher than the general population.
3) The education level of vets was higher than the country at large.
If you find somebody else whose thoughts you can parrot, you'll still be wrong.
posted on January 5, 2009 08:26:07 AM new
And puh-leaze don't - er, LIE about your sources this time - like citing Scientific American for tidbits you picked up from TV.
posted on January 5, 2009 09:14:21 AM new
"If you say the Vietnam war was fought mostly by poor uneducated minority teenagers in lieu of others, you are 100% wrong."
I don't believe I have said that, but here are some statistics from vietnamresearch.com/history/stats:
25% of Vietnam soldiers were draftees (648,000)
draftees accounted for 30.4% of combat deaths
76% of Vietnam soldiers were from lower middle/working class backgrounds.
My research agrees with yours regarding minorities being slightly under-represented as compared to general population.
By the way, I try not to parrot others' thoughts, but figured William Westmoreland might have had slightly better insight regarding the Vietnam draft than you do. My mistake. Your information is the only correct information and all others with information are dummies. Perhaps if you were more open to to other opinions, you might not be such an angry man.
[ edited by coach81938 on Jan 5, 2009 09:15 AM ]
posted on January 5, 2009 10:53:57 AM new
Source: Defense Dept.
25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.)
Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.
Reservists killed: 5,977.
National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died.
Total draftees (1965-73): 1,728,344.
Actually served in Vietnam: 38%
88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.
86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics);
12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races.
170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 (5.2% of total) died there.
70% of enlisted men killed were of Northwest European descent.
86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711) were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.
14.6% (1,530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks.
34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.
Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population.
76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from middle/working class backgrounds.
Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.
Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations.
79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service.
(63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation.)
posted on January 5, 2009 11:20:43 AM new
Nothing in my last post disagrees with your last post.
I do have twi comments, though. Being above the poverty level(how much above?)does not necessarily indicate middle class or better.
Having more high school graduates in Vietnam than Korea or WWII may be indicative of each era. I believe that more people in general did not graduate high school in the 1940's and 1950's than in the 1960's.
posted on January 5, 2009 11:49:47 AM new
Here's another bleeding-heart liberal's view (who obviously knows much less about the Vietnam war than Squirrel).
"And to go back to the draft … again, throughout history, every time there's been a draft, whether it be the Civil War or any other war when we've had a draft, it's been totally unfair and unequal. You had three Harvard graduates in three years that accepted the draft in the Vietnam War.
So you can call it a lottery. You can call it a banana. Rich people get out of the draft and I'm not ready to go back to a totally unfair system where we ask the poorest people in this country to serve". --John McCain, Oct 2007
