posted on November 9, 2000 04:35:58 PM new
Hi SG52,
Thanks. I have been working on some other projects and I had to turn into a lurker for the most part. I should be making fairly regular appearances again shortly.
posted on November 9, 2000 05:58:38 PM new
Hi, Damon. I've been in contact with Paypal support for several weeks. I appreciate your suggestion but I do not wish to retell the story yet again. I've been beating my head against a wall for weeks. If you want to check the account, my email is [email protected]. I think this should have been handled through regular channels weeks ago. Steve
posted on November 9, 2000 06:09:37 PM new
Before you start singing the praises of Paydirect, remember that this is a Yahoo program and Yahoo is famous for running a site entirely without human intervention. If a buyer makes a charge back, Yahoo just takes it out of the seller's account without giving the seller a chance to show proof of delivery. It's only a matter of time before the same bozos who deadbeat on Yahoo with multiple IDs learn that they don't have to deadbeat, they can use Paydirect and get the stuff free.
I would recommend Exchangepath, Payplace and Moneyzap. I emailed them all and they all said they would follow standard credit card rules, which means the seller is contacted and if he can show proof of delivery, the charge back will be denied.
posted on November 9, 2000 11:02:07 PM new
Twinsoft ...... Don't kid yourself, anyone who uses a CC to pay/fund anything, can dispute the charges.
Off the Yahoo TOS:
.......................................
If a Sender makes a claim that a Payment credited to a Recipient's PayDirect Account was unauthorized or charges back, rejects or otherwise disputes a funding transaction, the proceeds of which were used to fund a Payment, the Bank may debit the Payment from the Recipient's PayDirect Account and/or hold the funds pending resolution of the claim. The Bank will notify the Recipient if it reverses a Payment credited to the Recipient's PayDirect Account or imposes a hold on the Recipient's Account.
Can I dispute or charge back a transaction if I am not satisfied with a purchase paid with PayDirect?
Unfortunately Yahoo! and the Bank cannot help you resolve disputes with people to whom you've sent money via PayDirect. Please contact the recipient directly, or use other legal remedies that may be available to you if you cannot resolve your dispute informally. In case of suspected fraud, you should contact appropriate law enforcement authorities.
Please also note that transactions used to fund your PayDirect account are separate from any payment transactions made via PayDirect. You may not dispute or charge back a transaction used to fund your PayDirect account on the basis of any dispute with a recipient over an amount owed; the quantity, quality, or safety of goods or services purchased; whether or not goods or services have been shipped, received, or performed; or any other aspect of your relationship with a recipient. This is true even if you used your credit card to fund your account.
(Emphasis mine.)
********************
So what does that mean? It sounds like payments made to fund the customer's PayDirect account (i.e., from a credit card) are separate from any purchases made using funds in the PayDirect account. In other words, the money I receive as a seller does not come from a credit card, but rather from the customer's PayDirect account. Whether or not the customer funds his account with a credit card is irrelevant. That's how I understand it anyway.
Reddeer, please post the URL of the page where you found that statement so I can check it out.
Sure, they word their TOS that way, so that Yahoo &/or the Bank will not be held accountable if someone initiates a charge back, they also state they can/will terminate a users account if they initiate a charge back.
So, it might be a one time thing before Yahoo nukes ya, but any consumer who uses their CC, can dispute the charges, no matter what they use it for.
I think the best thing for sellers to do is contact MC, Visa, etc & ask them about their charge back policies. Forget about Billpoint, PayPal, Yahoo etc. Once a buyer uses a CC for their purchase, it's between the card holders company, and the merchant.
edited you, to Merchant. Thanks Yisgood!
[ edited by reddeer on Nov 10, 2000 07:42 AM ]
posted on November 10, 2000 07:38:42 AM new
>>Once a buyer uses a CC for their purchase, it's between the card holders company, and you<<
No, it's between the card holder's company and the merchant, the merchant being the service used (paydirect, paypal, exchangepath, etc.) A reasonable merchant like Exchangepath, Payplace and Moneyzap will contact the seller and ask for proof of delivery.
A lazy merchant like Paydirect will just charge it back.
A crooked merchant like Paypal will take the seller's entire account and make a whole slew of innocent buyers pay the price.
posted on November 10, 2000 08:40:59 AM new
I asked a Billpoint rep yesterday if I stated *ALL SALES FINAL* on my Billpoint invoices sent to the buyer, if this would remove the possibility of getting a charge back.
Her response:
........................................
Putting all sales final on your invoice will certainly help, but it will not prevent a chargeback dispute. Again, the
way the bank card rules are written, if the cardholder was not in front of you to sign a sales slip, then you as the
seller are likely to have to accept a chargeback in the event of a cardholder dispute. Making sure you have
excellent documentation is your best defense.
We have investigated the idea of seller insurance, but your point on this is right on the money. It would absolutely
impact prices, and the eBay community is very sensitive to fees already. We do continue to look at it as an
option, however, and if we decide to offer this type of option, we'll be sure to let our users know.
............................................
Personally I would LOVE to have the option of spending a few bucks for seller insurance on some of my larger $$ Billpoint transactions.
I know, more fees, who needs them, but I would sleep a whole lot better at night knowing that 3 months down the road I wasn't going to be out of my merchandise AND my $$$$.
posted on November 10, 2000 08:45:28 AM new
>>I would sleep a whole lot better at night knowing that 3 months down the road some I wasn't going to be out of my merchandise AND my $$$$. <<
As a merchant who accepted credit cards directly, standard credit card rules do NOT allow the customer to both keep the merchandise and the money. If the seller shows proof of delivery then the customer must show proof of return or the charge back is denied. I had three attempted charge backs in which the customer tried to keep the merchandise and all three were denied.
This is why I am so appalled at Paypal and Paydirect. To my knowledge these are the only services that charge back the seller without giving seller a chance to show proof of delivery and without making the customer show proof of return.
posted on November 10, 2000 09:04:37 AM new
Ok, at least I won't have to worry about that. Thanks! I had heard a few stories about buyers trying to keep the goods & the $$$, and so far they don't seem to be resolved.
The other problem is, that as a Canadian seller, proof of delivery is only possible If I send the item via ExpressPost USA, which is extremely expensive.
If I use that shipping option I'll have to eat some serious coin over time.
If Billpoint offered their own seller insurance, it might be a lot cheaper in the long run, but then again they might also demand DC on all parcels?
posted on November 10, 2000 02:44:05 PM new
Thanks for the interesting discussion, fellows. I haven't had to deal with a chargeback yet with Yahoo so I guess it will be interesting to find out what happens. The items I sell are mostly inexpensive softwares. I can live with a chargeback. Of course, Paypal locking up my account for a month over a $10 dispute is a different story.
posted on November 10, 2000 04:41:50 PM new
Just a little question as I sit and muse over this thread and others like it over the past few weeks. If PayPal is causing this much grief and anxiety, why is AW still listing PayPal as a "Partner Service." If I were AW I'd want to be putting a little distance between my company and theirs simply because when the stuff hits the fan (as it likely will) it is going to splatter all over.
posted on November 10, 2000 04:48:57 PM new
[iIf PayPal is causing this much grief and anxiety, why is AW still listing PayPal as a "Partner Service." [/i]
If Firestone offered to buy some AW ads telling us to inflate our tires properly, and be an AW partner, would you have a beef with that?
For all its faults, PayPal has not demonstrated itself to be a fraud in any way. Given that, there is no reason for AW to refuse their business.
posted on November 10, 2000 05:44:32 PM new
I'm one of the PayPal victim. My money frozen over three month.
I never received any document or any explanation from PayPal. All my
complaints was ignored. Finally Damon from PayPal asked to contact him
with information and I did. Than I contacted him again and he ask to refresh
his memory and I did. Nothing happen, so I contact Damon again and offer
to file complaint against PayPal together because they didn't respond.
From that time Damon disappear, I sent few more e-mails to him with
one question: " what happen?", but Damon stop reply to my e-mail.
Anybody know what happen to Damon? Maybe they fired him or he
quit. I understand, very stressful job.
So this is my conclusion: Close your accounts with PayPal ASAP
before they grab your money and do your business old fashion way.
Money Order is the best way. It takes few days extra but you will
receive your money and will send your merchandise. With PayPal
you would see your money is there, but you cannot get them.
Your Account restricted and you cannot brake that wall. PayPal
silent no word from them, like you are not exist.
posted on November 11, 2000 06:35:49 AM new
sg52: You mean Firestone as in, pulled random sample of tires off the very line in question for testing 4 years ago. On average 8 of 13 tires failed and they decided that no one needed to know about it and didn't fix the problem either. That, Firestone? Interestingly similar approach to customer service at PayPal don't you think? Sounds like fraud to me.
posted on November 11, 2000 06:40:55 PM new
>>standard credit card rules do NOT allow the customer to both keep the merchandise and the money
Not if the buyer states it like that, "I'd like to keep both the money and the merchandise because <..>", no.
But if the buyer is only slightly more "clever", ...
sg52<<
I had three charge back attempts during the period in which I accepted CC. In the first one, I just showed proof of shipping and it was denied. In the second, the customer responded that he didnt like the monitor and wanted a refund. I responded that I would give a full refund of what he paid me, including the shipping. The customer wanted me to pay his shipping back to me. This I refused. (If I did that, everyone could just order whatever they wanted, use it for a while and then return it at my expense.) Again, his charge back was denied. The third guy tried to be clever. He first claimed it was an unauthorized charge. I sent proof of delivery of a laser printer to his house. He then claimed his son must have ordered it without his permission. The CC company tried to argue that this was a good defense. I countered by saying I also had one of their credit cards and I also had a son, if this was a good defense, my son would have a field day ordering stuff that I would let him keep while charging it back. They very quickly denied the charge back.
So in charge backs, I stand 0 for 3. Even being clever didn't help the scammer.
