posted on November 24, 2001 06:29:30 PM new
Need some of my fellow sellers/buyers advice. I bought a pair of advertised NWT ballet shoes for my daughter. Got them at a pretty good price, but not a steal. Paid the seller the $4.00 shipping she asked for.
Shoes arrive at my door via first class mail at $1.26 postage. Ok, I can get over that, the auction said $4.00 shipping, it didn't say how it was getting here.
Shoes are indeed new in the box, but they have a major flaw in them that anyone who looked at them should have seen. They will require the repair of a shoemaker to make them useable. Sellers auction says all sales are final.
I wrote her telling her that I was dissapointed in the fact that the shoes had an obvious flaw and while I was at it I threw in the fact that I was a bit miffed at the shipping rate vs the method. Requested that she replace the shoes since even though they were new they had a major flaw in them. Where the elastic ties at the front all the fabric that covers the elastic and keeps it in place was frayed and had come loose. Without proper repair the shoes might have lasted a wearing or two.
This was her response:
"I am sorry to hear that you were not pleased with the item purchased on E-Bay. The shoes that you purchased came directly from (manufacturer) which is in (area where I live) and were directlty out of stock. I was not aware that the shoes had a flaw because they had not been opened by our staff.
Regarding the shipping rate. $4.00 is the standard rate charged on E-bay. This rate is determined by the farthest shipping zip code from origination. Because your address was in xxxxx the Priority Mail would not have arrived any quicker. Also because this was a xxxxxx sale shipped within XXXXX, sales tax was omitted by E-bay in error and you were not charged.
I hope that this has cleared up some of the misgivings you indicated.
Have a nice Holiday Season."
OK..well obviously she totally omitted the fact that I had asked her for a replacement, so I wrote her back.
"Then I'm assuming you won't make good on a defective item?
As a seller you should inspect all items that you are selling to make sure that they are in good condition before offering them up as perfect. I am also a seller (under a different id) and even a new seller knows this. You can't expect to sell something as new without mentioning a defect. Even when I buy something for resale, I thoroughly inspect the item and mention even the smallest flaws. I see you are a fairly new seller, but this is basic common sense. If you can tell me where in xxxxxxx to return these to I can at least attempt to get a new pair.
As far as $4.00 being a "standard charge on ebay" there is no such thing. Some sellers offer free shipping some charge ridiculous amounts for shipping; there is no such thing as a standard shipping charge.
With regard to the sales tax, I would have been happy to pay the charge had I been asked. I had no idea you were in XXXXX since I paid via Billpoint. Take the sales tax that was omitted out of the $2.79 profit you made on the shipping.
Now I haven't heard a thing from this seller since she wrote me and I wrote her back early Friday. Maybe my reply was a bit terse....but I was upset. Especially by the "standard shipping charge" bit. I'm assuming that she's going to basically ignore me.
So, what would you do if this was your transaction? What type of feedback would you leave???
posted on November 24, 2001 06:44:37 PM new
I would allow another week or so for the seller to respond. In the meantime I would look to see if they are continuing to offer this kind of item, and if so, you will know that they likely could replace the shoes.
The answer you received from the seller is frankly outrageous, and most likely completely untrue. I doubt there is a seller on ebay who would buy factory rejects without being able to see them first.
If still no response, I would email them that you are returning the shoes and initiating a chargeback and appropriate feedback.
Continue to be professional about it, as you have been, and leave the neg. "Seller failed to reveal defect, wouldn't replace, overcharged for shipping."
posted on November 24, 2001 07:08:23 PM new
folks,please do not look at the postage and think this is shipping charge-this is what the post office charges,dont forget handling and processing fee.
<br />
some sellers may live far away and drive for miles to a post office and some use kids to pack and ship at 5.00 an hour.in some cases,boxes and packing material cost money,my local supplier has raised cost of die cut boxes several times this year??does it make sense a 4 by 4 by 2 box costs me 57 cents?????
<br />
some sellers have self insurance,so if this is lost ,she could replace it.
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as for the shoes,seller should not say she is not aware as they come from the factory.she should be able to return them to the factory due to defects,of couse if this is factory reject/returns,then you are s--t out of luck,from the tone,she does not want to do anything about these shoes.these days sales are so slow,a pair of shoes out the door is one sale completed.<br />
[ edited by wowwow85 on Nov 24, 2001 07:11 PM ]
I don't know why you buy boxes when the USPS offers free shipping materials for priority mail.
Myself, I charge a (very small) handling fee that is basically rounding up to the nearest dollar. I tend to make from around 5 cents to 40 cents in 'handling'. And, when I can afford the monthly output for a postage meter I won't even charge that little bit.
What she just described is way nutty. I shipped an item just a few days ago that went precisely 30 miles away from me. I could have sent it first class or some other cheaper method and still gotten it to her rather quickly. However, I stated I use USPS Priority mail and that that is what her shipping would go towards, and so I did use it. The funny thing is, she insured it, too. : )
I have a no returns policy as well, but I've bent it twice... both times for defects that I didn't notice. Of course, they were easily missable. One actually had the wrong size tag. On one side it says '8' and on the other it says '10'... now I've heard of 7/8, 8/9 before, but never 8/10. The two sizes were so radically different that regardless of the measurements I always put up, it didn't fit, so... I let her return it and refunded her. The other one was a small stain that I had never seen before, even though they were jeans that came out of /my/ closet. I took the buyer's word and sent out another pair. Both ended up happy.
There's no reason why this person shouldn't send you another item, or at the very least... a refund. That's just horrible. You didn't get what was advertised, and that in simple, short, and concise terms, is fraud.
posted on November 24, 2001 10:47:23 PM new
"All sales final" is meaningless when fraud or defects are not disclosed.
If you paid via a credit card, return the shoes to the seller either insured, or another method which shows the item was signed received by the seller. Then do a charge back.
Sellers such as this will be the death of small sellers and internet auctions.
posted on November 25, 2001 05:42:08 AM new
As far as the shoes coming from the factory directly to her I think that is a false statement, since the shoes have a "retail type" price sticker on them with the aproximate price you would pay in a dance store. I think she bought them for either herself or a child and never used them.
I just have a feeling about this one and wonder if I'd be better off just having them repaired and leaving her a neg. Of course I should just expect a neg in return for my trouble. Thank goodness for buying ID's
I know about postage and handling, being a seller myself. This seller placed these shoes in a plastic mailer, no bubble wrap or any type of cusion to protect the contents from being crushed, and slapped $1.26 postage on it. Now, she lives aproximately 45 minutes from where I do, but the post office did a nice job of mooshing the heck out of this envelope. The shoes were not damaged from the transit, but the outer box has seen better days.
I think this is a new(er) seller (16 fb all positive) who just ran into something she doesn't want to deal with and is trying to stand behind her "all sales final" TOS.
posted on November 25, 2001 06:55:04 AM new
if you return the item,seller can always refuse to accept,you end up wasting your postage.
chalk it up to experience and move on!!
move on to reputable dealers and reputable retail stores where you can see what you are buying.
many of us shop on ebay for bargains,sometimes it is better to shop in a real store.
posted on November 25, 2001 07:33:15 AM new
This whole thing sounds a bit odd to me
First we have shoes from the maufacturer with Tags How is this posiable.
The next question I ask myself is this these are realy slippers ballet slippers there is no such thing as ballet shoes.
Most are made of silk or cloth of some type all over Not to much to be defective really some ballet slipppers will have paper boards or vynil in the toes to keep them square and on the bottom and they will have laces.
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com <br />
Email [email protected]
[ edited by dman3 on Nov 25, 2001 07:36 AM ]
posted on November 25, 2001 07:52:07 AM new
These were not pointe shoes, but regular leather ballet slippers. My original post stated what the flaw was, the fabric that covers the elastic ties on the front of the shoe was loose (not sewn properly) and frayed.
The seller stated NWT. I know there are no actual "tags" on ballet shoes/slippers but I understood what she was saying, that they were new in the box, and they were, along with a retail sticker on the outside of the box. We all know that sometimes even though something is NIB/NWT it can be defective. I don't thing that these came directly from the mfg to her but possibly she bought them new from a store and never used them.
posted on November 25, 2001 08:04:37 AM new
what is NIB/NWT??
i know there is MIB which is mint in box .
did she show a photo??does the photo show fray and defects??
seller told you she got them from a local maufacturer and did not examine the item before listing and prior to shipping,you are just speculating she bot it in retail store and never use it.
the box does not have to be the box for that pair of shoes,she may have boxes lying around which she can use.
ebay is a flea market,when you buy something on ebay,you have to pretty much prepared yourself that there is a likely chance the item is misrepresented and in many cases not worth the trouble and expenses of returning the item.
it is not like an established mail order company which allows for returns,replacement,refund ,pay for returned goods shipping charge and provide a toll free number 24 hours 7 days a week.
posted on November 25, 2001 08:16:43 AM new
NIB-New in Box
NWT-New with Tags
The photo the seller used in the ad was the photo from the manufacturer's site. Not that big a deal, I've purchased many pair of ballet shoes on Ebay that are pictured in this manner and never had a problem. Normally when someone does this its because the shoes in the mfg picture are on somebody's feet and beautifully posed. Guess it just looks nicer that way than just laid out on a table. Had she used her own picture, the flaw would have been evident (at least to me)
posted on November 25, 2001 08:17:52 AM new
Not to change the subject, but a few weeks ago I signed up for the yahoo user to user program. Now everyday I have buyers and sellers complain about fraud. Sellers are not shipping goods, and buyers refuse to pay. And I have many people asking about ebay fraud too. I had no idea there was this much fraud on internet auctions. ebay and yahoo are much worse than flea markets. At least there you can inspect goods, and at least your merchandise.
just4laffs it sounds to me like she purchased the item at the factorys outlet store. If she did the outlets where I live dont allow returns, and usually there isnt a large selection of the same item. I hope you get your refund!
posted on November 25, 2001 08:31:53 AM new
most factories have certain quality control standards,many factory outlets items look just like those in stores until you examine closely,and most of the times buyer are willing to live with the defects.
factories are not afraid to destroy the ones which are not acceptable even as seconds .
wonder where she gets the items?
posted on November 25, 2001 03:34:31 PM new
I thought there was a rule that you couldn't sell items that you didn't have in your hand already. My sister once sold Tupperware for a church fundraiser on eBay. Once the auctions ended, something happened and the items didn't get ordered. She was turned in for selling items that she didn't actually have in her hands.
just4laffs: Is that what your buyer was saying? She didn't have the items in hand when she sold them?
I searched the eBay site but couldn't find this rule. Maybe someone has it bookmarked.
posted on November 25, 2001 05:15:38 PM new
dixiebee-you may have confused this thread with other threads.
this is about selling defective merchandise.
i dont think ebay will suspend anyone who sells what he does not own,may be if he does not have the item and cannot ship,he gets too many neg and get thrown out of ebay ,i think it is rating of neg 3.
there are many ,i mean MANY sellers who do not have the goods when they list the items for sale on ebay,worst offenders are sellers of electronic goods like laptops as they are expensive to hoard and they are available not one of a kind,so why not get your money first and then order?
posted on November 26, 2001 04:48:11 AM newThe shoes that you purchased came directly from (manufacturer) which is in (area where I live) and were directlty out of stock.I was not aware that the shoes had a flaw because they had not been opened by our staff.
Bolding adding for emphasis.
The way I read this is that the shoes were shipped directly to you from the manufacturer so her "staff" was unable to open them and check for the flaw.
posted on November 26, 2001 08:04:19 AM new
this is a 15 dollar transaction and it sounds like factory seconds(or should have been destroyed),i doubt this is a drop shipment??
the seller is just trying to sound like a legitimate established retailer by throwing words around like examined by OUR STAFF??
WHY NOT CALL HER AND SEE WHO ANSWERS THE PHONE AND IS THAT A STORE??
i notice the author of the thread also discussed this issue on andale message board.
ebay is a flea market and this is not surprising,it could be worse,so move on .
posted on November 26, 2001 09:09:59 AM new
You're out of luck, seller does not have a return policy, and you were aware of it.
I once bought a keyboard at Walmart, brought it home and it was defective. Of course I got it exchanged, but you could say why didn't they inspect it in the first place? Why, because they assume new merchandise is working. That is the correct assumption based on playing the odds.
Your seller is not obligated to check new merchandise, or used merchandise for that matter. They can sell it as-is, and that leaves the buyer having to ask the proper questions to make sure they know what they are getting.
There is no proof of fraud, so drop that matter.
You have no idea if the seller overcharged. Sellers are not required to lose money on packaging and shipping an item, and can charge the fair rate. What is a fair rate? If I paid a worker a competitve rate of $7 hr to package an item, and it took 15 min to package, that is $1.75 I can charge you on top of the postage. Plus, paying a delivery guy to stand in line at the PO could be another .50¢-$1.75. Some sellers add this to the bid price which causes a higher start bid, and possibly less bids. Some sellers want the competitive advantage of a lower start price, so only can cover shipping costs with shipping fees. The $4 you were charged seems pretty standard as the seller stated.
Next time you may want to buy from a seller with a return policy. You also need to ask questions no matter what the description says, as most items sold on ebay are sold as-is whether seller says it or not, and seller may have not checked all defects.
Hope that info helps you next time, don't feel like I'm attacking you, I've learned my lesson the hard way too.
posted on November 26, 2001 09:53:29 AM new
Quickdraw:
All that you said is understood. I'm not a new buyer/seller and I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm stuck with what I bought and that I'll probably have them repaired locally so that my daughter can use them.
Yet, I'm curious, if this was your transaction as a buyer, what type of feedback would you leave?
posted on November 26, 2001 10:39:15 AM new
The seller may still offer an exchange if you be real nice. However, you already told her, "Then I'm assuming you won't make good on a defective item?" That could make a seller hit delete real fast.
The neutral feedback I'd leave is "Not happy with item, described as new, had hole." I do hold reservations about leaving feedback in this instance because like I said, the responsibilty is the buyers. However, you had reasonable cause to expect an item that looked new, so you're right to express your disatisfaction. If seller has a high rate of defective items, other buyers will know by the neautral feedbacks. If this was an isolated instance, then the neutral won't hurt him.
posted on November 26, 2001 02:08:49 PM new
With regard to 1st class versus priority shipment note that the post office defines first class and priority as the same level of service and speed of delivery.
posted on November 26, 2001 02:48:02 PM new
i totally agree with quickdraw,seller states shipping on item description and buyer must agree to the fee else he should not be bidding.
what the post office stamped on the envelope is what post office charges,too many ebay bidders expect shipping to be postage stamps only .
whether seller walk or drive to post office,use padded enevelope or box,thats seller decision.a little leeway allows seller to make a gesture and replace lost or damaged item not insured.
of course this is not the case here.
posted on November 26, 2001 06:13:22 PM new
Well, I'd send one more email requesting a refund, and then say you will file for a refund with Billpoint (or your credit card company directly) if she does not follow through. You may also explain to her that she may incur additional fees for a chargeback.
the merchandise sold was defective. this is a NEGATIVE feedback situation, not neutral. This is exactly what feedback is designed for, to tell other users, "Sells defective merchandise as new, no refunds/ replace." That's all you need to say, get 2 of those and her whole "staff" will be out of work.
posted on November 26, 2001 07:02:06 PM new
If It were me Id trudge on over to the local shoe repair and get an estimate - Then contact the seller and ask for a an un-broken pair giving the estimated repair cost and try to remain polite. If the seller is a sport youll get a new pair and then you should return the defects-Id send them usps with a .25 proof of mailing. If you get a good pair - you should leave good FB and you are due the same. If the shoes have been worn or tried out in any way all bets are off the seller will know when he inspects them and youll get a zinger. If you get stuck just chalk it up to experience and get em fixxed.
Hope that Helps
posted on November 26, 2001 07:19:58 PM new
seller can come back and NEG you for playing a switch a roo game.so you will earn an unnecessary neg.
seller can have many negs and still merrily strive on ebay,as long as the net is not more than -3.
posted on November 26, 2001 07:48:39 PM new
A negative feedback would be ridiculous. The seller has no reason to believe the item is defective. The seller is not obligated to offer a refund because auctions are as-is.
Being an auction, sellers can't always build the customer staisfaction costs into the price, therefore buyer doesn't pay for that service, and shouldn't expect to receive it. Besides, a negative doesn't serve anymore purpose than a neutral.
