posted on January 13, 2003 01:31:59 PM new
Free shipping ???
For as low of price as my auctions go for sometimes, I wouldn't be able to afford to sell on ebay offering free shipping unless I inflated my prices and then probably wouldn't sell as much
posted on January 13, 2003 02:12:22 PM new
I don't even understand how free shipping would work for most sellers or why eBay thinks it is important enough to start "pushing" the concept on sellers.
Unless ebay really wants to move toward a half.com format. However, for anyone who sells on half.com, the shipping reimbursement only works if your item doesn't weigh much. Otherwise you have to adjust your starting price to reflect the extra cost of mailing at a higher weight.
I wonder if the concept eBay is "pushing" is for all sellers to either 1)state all shipping and insurance costs in the auction or 2)offer free shipping and insurance. This would make for an easier integration with Paypal.
Or maybe eBay is just "pushing" this concept for the electronics categories.
If eBay rammed free shipping down my throat, I would have to increase starting prices to a level that would diminish my bids considerably.
posted on January 13, 2003 02:16:21 PM new
Mandatory free shipping on ebay is a very bad idea. An item with a fixed price of $50 with $20 for shipping is much more attractive to buyers than the same item priced at $70 with free shipping. Especially if they can buy the same item in a store for $60.
Free shipping would also let ebay charge final value fees on the shipping cost. Plus, the insertion fees will also cost a lot more for fixed price listings that are marked up to compensate for free shipping.
Free shipping would be very good for ebay but bad for sellers.
posted on January 13, 2003 02:24:44 PM new
I list nearly all my auctions with free shipping for using the BIN feature! The key is that I add the shipping amount to the price I'd like to get and put that as the BIN price.
It works out fabulous! I have almost 80% of my auctions end with BIN. Both myself and the bidder get the auction over with sooner and I get my $$$ faster!
When BIN was a free option, I used it always, then they started charging the nickel for it. I quit using it for a long time and I regret doing so! It's so fun to just get it all over with in a few hours and the buyer feels like they got a great deal!
Of course this won't work with large, heavy items or for the examples given above. And I am opposed to that being required! I want the choice of offering free shipping as a selling tool!
[ edited by wendywins on Jan 13, 2003 02:25 PM ]
posted on January 13, 2003 02:25:23 PM new
Instead of pushing sellers to offer free shipping, ebay should be working with shipping companies (USPS, UPS, Fedex) to keep shipping costs down.
Heck, maybe ebay should buy one of the shipping companies and run it themselves.
posted on January 13, 2003 02:27:35 PM new
Free shipping would create another problem, in that some sellers will package to make the box weigh less, not to insure it gets to the buyer safely.
Just this morning I received an email from a customer, asking me what she can about all of her recent eBay purchases that arrived broken due to poor packaging by other sellers. Ouch. If poor packaging is already a problem, free shipping will make it even worse, driving away even more buyers.
Does anyone buy on half.com? I do. Books are wrapped in paper, arrive wet, dirty and torn. Half of the sellers package appropriately, half of them do not.
posted on January 13, 2003 02:39:30 PM new
There were some laughable comments in that other thread, especially the poster that said they wanted to "make a name for themselves" selling on eBay.
Meg was a branding specialist at her former jobs. Pierre and others KNEW that eBay would be short lived if sellers had the ability to BRAND their own items and service through eBay. THEY KNEW early on that if a seller could brand on eBay they could easily lure buyers away to their own sales web site.
Meg was HIRED TO CREATE A SITE THAT WILL NOT PERMIT A SELLER TO MAKE A NAME FOR THEMSELVES ON EBAY -- EBAY IS THE ONLY BRAND ALLOWED ON EBAY!!!! She has done a good job. But just as AOL users soon learned the truth and AOL has now started to tank, eBay buyers will soon learn to deal direct with sellers and protect themselves paying by credit card, and sellers will learn to brand and direct sell through ways that eBay can not control.
eBay's main reason for buying Paypal was to prevent Paypal from becoming a service that would protect buyers when buying direct from sellers and facilitating the by-passing eBay.
eBay's time is limited just as AOL's was. The technology that created AOL and eBay will be what creates their downfall.
Internet sales sites like eBay's will be replaced by P2P system where sellers list for free on their own computers and buyers buy exclusively via credit card-- the credit card companies will develope the P2P software and take a cut from the purchase price. Sellers will house their own pictures and descriptions for free on their own PCs and have listed as many items as they may like -- but it won't pay to attempt to swamp the buyer's search with repeated copies of your auction, because only one will show up.
The future of eBay ? 10 years from now it won't be here.
Reduce fees ?? She can't. Listing numbers are starting to mature ( even with FLDs). To reach eBay's revenue predictions, either eBay has to grow as it has in the past (which it can't), or get more fees from the present users.
Another interesting observation was the comment that eBay needs to pay attention to those that consistently list and pay a lot of fees. Nothing could be more inaccurrate. eBay needs to research the sellers who have reduced their listings and find out why. The most basic business and marketing rule is to find out who is not buying your product and why. This does not mean that you do not maintain service and satisfaction levels of current customers,but the cuatomers you must pay attentionto are the ones leaving. Preaching to the choir is not a sound practice for growth.
[ edited by Reamond on Jan 13, 2003 02:40 PM ]
[ edited by Reamond on Jan 13, 2003 02:50 PM ]
posted on January 13, 2003 04:39:39 PM new
Marie has championed the idea of lower ebay listing fees only on auction items that start under a dollar with no reserve. Four or five years ago I used to write to ebay to get them to lower listing fees on very slow moving items like high school yearbooks. I think the reason that they will never lower select listing fees is because the other sellers will all cry foul and want reduced listing fees for their categories too and ebay does not want to open that can or worms.
I can not understand the early part of thread about ebay wanting sellers to use third party services. I've always thought that ebay wanted to see those things die and go away. I think Ebay would make more money if they did go away. I can see ebay's interested in owning a few of them so they can steer them where ebay wants to go.
I don't think Meg "gets it" in regards to s/h on ebay. Many, many sellers pay all of their ebay fees and get a fair share of their profits from excess shipping fees charged to buyers. We may see a 'free listing day for items that have free shipping' promotion very soon.
posted on January 13, 2003 04:48:27 PM new
Reamond, if you are discussing ten years or more from now, would it not be more likely for ebay to eventually evolve to a virtual reality shopping mall, rather than everyone has their pc hooked to the net?
posted on January 13, 2003 07:55:47 PM new
It will probably be less than 10 years, more likely in the 2-5 year range.
A virtual shopping center would have the same challenges that the present paltform has. Why sell at eBay's Mall if I can offer customers direct sales from my PC or servers ? The main service eBay offers is to easily direct sellers to buyers and buyers to sellers. AOL was the "easy" way to connect to the internet. A P2P system will do the same thing cheaper and easier than eBay. And in case you missed it, the P2P system is/was the fastest growing thing that the internet has ever hatched. There are more downloads of Kazaa et al than there are members of eBay and AOL combined.
I can go on Kazaa right now and find and download nearly the whole portfolio of any pop musician or music genre for the last 4 decades. The same can be done with the information for what I have to sell, and I can search for what I want to buy- text descriptions and pictures and all. I can list them all for free. The only element missing is a seamless credit card payment system to meld with the P2P system. That's why eBay scooped up Paypal.
AOL, the music and movie industry, and eBay all think/thought that they could control, charge for, and shape the technology and how it is used. eBay soon will see its venue fade.
eBay's branding is another problem and why nearly all major retailers will not list on eBay -- and why Disney insisted on its own separate site. If I owned a brand there is no way I would sell on eBay. Could you imagine spending years and millions of dollar$ on creating a brand just to hear a buyer say they bought the item on/from eBay ??
posted on January 14, 2003 06:59:20 AM new
Hi everyone. Someone previously mentioned P2P and Kazaa in this thread as a way to possibly skip ebay, if I understood the posting correctly. How does someone go about using P2P/Kazaa to sell directly to customers without ebay being the middleman? At the moment, I'm not at all familiar with Kazaa or P2P.
posted on January 14, 2003 08:17:57 AM new
As a Bimbo Billionaire, I sure ole Meg can afford FREE shipping! Perhaps she can spare me a million or so & then I CAN TOO!
Reminds me of all the MOOLA I lost after being suckered & sucked into her MILLION AUCTIONS for AMERICA fiasco
posted on January 14, 2003 09:06:10 AM new
If Meg wants to see listings go WAY WAY down, all she has to do is require us to ship for free. It isn't going to happen anytime soon. Or, if it does happen, it will be very short lived. I know I won't list anything. I am small potatoes but there are a lot of us that sell 100-200 'items' a month and just can't afford another 'fee'.
posted on January 14, 2003 09:21:17 AM new
I don't think free shipping will ever fly on ebay. Is Marie going to offer free shipping as well? I believe that she too makes a little profit on her shipping/handling as well. We would all welcome lower listing fees for slower moving items, that eventually do sell. How about ebay offering a subcription package? List up to 1000 auctions a month for on $99, etc. To recoup some of the lost listing fees, they could have a higher fvf for these subscriptions. Sure you'll see more items listed, that some might feel are just junk, but if you keep the subscription fee somewhat prohibitive, you won't see someone list 1000 widgets a month, that he knows are not going to sell. I think the biggest threat to ebay, is for people to run their own websites. With Google now testing their new Froogle search engine, this could be a big threat to ebay. Just search for your particular product and up comes the results of all the websites selling what you're looking for with price breakdowns. This would essentially cut out the middle man (ebay.)
posted on January 14, 2003 10:51:47 AM new
I don't know about anyone else, but I resent the idea of someone offering out my precious margin.
If free shipping is to be offered, it will be up to me as a seller to offer it, not be mandated by eBay. Why is it that the new ideas of today are always at the cost of someone else? Perhaps the eBay thinktank can come up with some other ideas with the cost coming out of their pocket, rather than that of the sellers. If there eyes are open and the are doing their homework, they know that selling on ebay is done on a low margin, high volume sales formula. The idea of mandated free shipping is not good, as many sellers simply cannot afford or will be willing to absorb the cost of this buyer benefit.
Am I missing something or is this just a really bad short sighted wish that is being somehow manipulated into a misguided great idea? My guess is that eBay is employing some consulting firm that is dreaming up this concoction.
posted on January 14, 2003 11:10:33 AM new
From Reamond:
eBay's time is limited just as AOL's was. The technology that created AOL and eBay will be what creates their downfall.
I agree with you on that point. I thought about this for quite sometime, I also done some extensive research on this technology and reached the same conclusions that you did. The technology to accomplish the above is here now! They are many Open Source (for free technology), per example, OpenNap is an Open Source Napster allows the ability of "the servers to search for particular files and initiate a direct transfer between the clients." These servers can also serve as the backbone to store the Feedback and database of Open and Closed Items. The database can be used to kept track of bids, send notification to Sellers and Buyers, execute electronic payments and indexing to show: Open and Completed Items, by Categories by Keywords as all existing auction houses presently do. In addition these servers can be made to store seller history up and category history up to 45 days, making easier for sellers to retrieve data for record keeping. Easier downloading of Seller history, payment history, fees billed, etc. The servers can be programed to be more seller friendly that present auction houses are.
Click Here: Open: Nap Open source Napster
If there were sufficient amount of sellers (50,000+) that were interested on setting up such a system and were willing to provide a moderate amount as seed money for such an enterprise, it could easily be done. There are many of us, that understand the technology and know where to go to get the serious money necessary to start such an undertaking. There is a great deal of talent among the online auction sellers, who know or understand the technology to provide additional guidance. There are many user groups that could help us to produce the required code for free, if we are willing to make this technology an open source (for free).
The money could be raised by having the interested sellers conduct 5 or 10 auctions each, with the proceeds going exclusively to set up such an enterprise. Similar to the charity auctions, except that this is not charity, but an investment on new technology and the resulting company. Sellers that participated on such an undertaking could be issue shares on proportion to the proceeds of their auctions. The net proceeds of these auctions could hold on escrow on a PayPal account, until they reach a certain level, sufficient to make this undertaking possible.
It would not work if setup as a coop, since investors are unwilling to invest on coops. It would need to be a for profit enterprise, the participant sellers want to make a potential profit for their (contribution) investment, investment houses want to make a profit to help raise the capital and finally investment banks want to make a profit from their investment.
Of course, because of the massive size of this undertaken, one person couldn't do it him/herself. We would need a lot of help, and organization and talent. However, there are many people on online auctions and on these boards, that have the expertise or know the technology, sufficiently to get this project underway. Redmond you could make an excellent marketing executive, since you have the vision of dreaming something new and creative as this project.
Internet sales sites like eBay's will be replaced by P2P system where sellers list for free on their own computers and buyers buy exclusively via credit card -- the credit card companies will develop the P2P software and take a cut from the purchase price. Sellers will house their own pictures and descriptions for free on their own PCs and have listed as many items as they may like -- but it won't pay to attempt to swamp the Buyer's search with repeated copies of your auction, because only one will show up.
Yes, they will be replaced by P2P system, but they will not be for free, since there is no incentive to create and perfect such a technology for free. We will still need a central system, that would list and catalogs all the items, such as Napster did, in addition this system will have additional requirements because of the nature of online auctions. We would need servers to maintain the database for Feedback, track the bids, maintains a history of items (Current and Complete Items), establish the categories of Items to be listed under, otherwise there would be chaos. In addition, improvements could be made to present online auctions, such as the ability to store summary of items sold, seller histories, easy downloading of seller histories, payment history, etc.
The new site could integrate selling and payments operations into one site and combine the fees to make them more reasonable for sellers and "steal a market share" from existing auction houses.
Reduce fees ?? She can't. Listing numbers are starting to mature (even with FLDs). To reach eBay's revenue predictions, either eBay has to grow as it has in the past (which it can't), or get more fees from the present users.
Someone told me once, only eBay can defeat eBay! There is a lot of true on that statement, if eBay continues to raise fees, it will accelerate the emergence of such a system. Sellers can only pay so much, specially under the present circumstances. Decreased number of buyers, resulting on lower prices, decreased number of bids per item and shrinking Sell-Thru-Rates. You are right, eBay has matured, their projected growth, from now on, will become more and more difficult to achieve.
Here is an interesting article Last update on January 14, 2003 by Professor Mahller from Brandeis University titled E-Business: Ebay Analysis
eBay's main reason for buying PayPal was to prevent PayPal from becoming a service that would protect buyers when buying direct from sellers and facilitating the by-passing eBay.
That may have been a secondary reason. However, the primary reason was that BillPoint was a failure, because of their small market share and lower fees. eBay couldn't afford to increase their fees at BillPoint without further eroding their market share. Therefore, it was cheaper to buy PayPal and do away with BillPoint. That way, eBay accomplish two goals, increase the fees and acquires a larger market share of the electronic payment system.
A virtual shopping center would have the same challenges that the present platform has. Why sell at eBay's Mall if I can offer customers direct sales from my PC or servers? The main service eBay offers is to easily direct sellers to buyers and buyers to sellers. AOL was the "easy" way to connect to the Internet. A P2P system will do the same thing cheaper and easier than eBay. And in case you missed it, the P2P system is/was the fastest growing thing that the Internet has ever hatched. There are more downloads of Kazaa et al than there are members of eBay and AOL combined.
Yes, the new system can compete with all the present auction houses by being cheaper, more user friendly (Buyers and Sellers) and more efficient by integrating the electronic payment system seamlessly. Those savings can be invested on advertisement to attract new buyers.
The news about the new system and the "hype" that follows new technology, would make this new technology the fastest growing website on the Internet. Kazaa.com is not there yet (# 713), but moving up the charts quickly; eBay is (# 19) by the number of unique users. Click here: eBay Traffic
Redmond, you had a great vision, thank you for sharing with all of us!
posted on January 14, 2003 11:48:48 AM new
As much as I hate giving eBay more money in fees, free shipping is really the only way to create a level playing field. Sellers that skim off the s&h will have to list their starting prices more accurately. I wonder how eBay would structure their "free shipping" as shipping rates are based on zones after one pound (at least for USPS anyway).
posted on January 14, 2003 12:30:48 PM new
What possible justification can you propose to rationalize the theft of my money relative to "FREE SHIPPING?"
Are you somehow entitled to this boobdoggle??
If all the baby buyers would just GROW-UP and simply READ auctions, there would be NO MORE shipping debates!
Kiddies, all ye have to do is: if you don't like a seller's TOS, DON'T BID!
posted on January 14, 2003 05:37:46 PM new
I hope meg tries forcing new things at sellers. Its time to build another venue. All you former yahoo auction users they are going to start removing dormant accounts. If you have any credits/feedback you might want to list a item to keep the account open. With the things ebay is planning on doing you might need it.
posted on January 14, 2003 06:47:04 PM new
I agree that a P2P network is the next phase of online auctions. Once such a system were in place, if it was easy to use, I believe it would grow quickly. When we discussed forming a coop a couple of years ago, this is one of the ideas we discussed. Unfortunately, we lacked technical expertise to develop such a project.
USM, I think a cooperative effort would work quite well. The problem is to avoid a for-profit auction house (like what we have now with eBay), while still allowing for sellers to run their own for-profit businesses. a P2P network would solve that problem nicely. We've already seen how tremendously popular P2P was (Napster, Kazaa).
Regarding free shipping, I don't see this happening. Remember the failure of Million Auction March (or whatever the 9/11 benefit was called) because eBay tried to force its sellers to donate (while giving nothing itself). eBay sellers can only be pushed so far. I do believe eBay will refine Search, as they are doing now, to encourage buyers to visit free shipping auctions. Those who don't offer Paypal, or offer free shipping, will appear lower in the search, or not at all, depending on the bidder's preferences.
BTW, a $1/month flat fee would cover server needs for storing feedback on a P2P network. Assuming (open source) software already exists.
posted on January 14, 2003 07:46:07 PM new
Twelvepole
As long as they are busy listing in the computer categories, it makes it easier for their parole officers to keep track of them.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on January 15, 2003 06:13:25 AM new
Great thread - thank you!
eBay has been continual change for us.
Now, with Google having a new idea (froogle.google.com) in beta test, it seems now we'll learn to build our own website.
My question is: how has this worked for others?
many thanks
posted on January 15, 2003 10:26:30 AM new
There are lots of advantages to having your own website:
1. You control the content
2. You control product placement--where, when, how long, etc.
3. You control the payment options.
4. No listing fees, no FVF, no image hosting fees.
5. $35/year domain name registration-- you have your own domain.
6. You can find hosts for as little as $9.95/month.
7. You can offer add-ons, merchandising relationships, discounts, coupons, and any other darn thing you want to.
8. As long as it's not illegal, you can sell pretty much anything you want.
9. Free shopping cart programs are available (i.e., mals-e.com, paypal) that will offer you better functionality than the current deal with eBay and eBay stores.
10. With targeted marketing (i.e., google adwords, MSN, targeted links, affiliate programs), you send your particular niche market to your particular website, and don't have to worry that they're looking at 10s to 100s of other people's products at the same time they're looking at yours.
11. You don't have to deal with the "flea market" mentality of eBay buyers.
12. No NPBs, no negative feedback.
13. You can brand your own name instead of eBay's name.
14. You can set up opt-in marketing lists on your site.
Now, with all that said, there are some drawbacks. You may have to learn HTML or a WYSIWIG program. You've got to develop your site or find someone to develop it for you. You've got to promote, promote, promote. TANSTAAFL.
Basically, it's a different way of selling with some distinct advantages over auctions. I include both in my marketing mix, because right now I wouldn't just do eBay, especially not with new products in congested categories. The margin is just too low.
posted on January 15, 2003 11:15:01 AM new
Some great suggestions fleecies. I'll let you in on a secret, I followed the advice in the following article - it really does work:Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone
As I continue to put my energy into my web store, the returns continue to increase.
5. $35/year domain name registration-- you have your own domain.
Godaddy.com is $8/year and many webmasters and friends have recommended them.
9. Free shopping cart programs are available (i.e., mals-e.com, paypal) that will offer you better functionality than the current deal with eBay and eBay stores.
Mals-e.com is great. Been using them for three years now. Very flexible shopping cart. Then use optioncart.com as your store catalog.
