I am looking for your advice on how to best proceed with my current PayPal problem.
Last week I again find my account locked
The account was previously locked, and subsequently released on 3rd July 2001 after
sending "extensive" supporting documents to your compliance department.
At that time there was an issue with my maintaining an account for my
businesses based here in the US and in the UK. The problem was resolved
with the closure of the UK account to ensure compliance with your terms and
conditions. This resulted in alot of business being put through another company, at PayPal's loss as well as our inconveniance and cost.
Personally I was amazed that this was necessary, after all I manage to obtain both Bank Accounts
and Merchant Accounts in both countries for each business but it seems 2 PayPal accounts are not
permitted even when they are technically "owned" by the respective "Incorporated" companies and not me
personally, however a "company" cant do its own accounts, unfortunately, and at the time only one
login was allowed, although I see that "rule" has now changed.
Anyway at that time I made the business decision to only use PayPal when entirely necessary and to
leave it out of our current business plans. I also decided to leave a sizable balance in the remaining
account in the hope that it may produce "good faith" between our companies.
So imagine my shock to again find an account frozen message in my inbox, I immediately clicked the link
and replied explaining the situation that had happened last year, and further explaining that since
then nothing had changed.
Imagine even more, my horror, when a full 7 days after I sent that web form, I get a reply , actually
with my original mail attached stating that "because i had NOT replied my account was permanently locked"
I really believed that last year when it took over 8 weeks, a dozen faxes and numerous phone calls, some
over 1 hour in length, that PayPal was just going through a "Bad patch" and things could only get better.
This latest event has left me completely at a loss for words to describe the apparent disaster that is
PayPal's customer service.
Was my "within 24 hours" reply too slow for you ? Why could the account possibly be frozen again ? I have
ONLY used it to pay for a few goods and services from members who did not have any other form of payment
all of which went without a hitch, I have NEVER received funds from another PayPal member. The funds have been
funded from the companies bank account which is well funded and for which I have supplied more than enough
documents to prove its validity.
So I decided that i can't be the only one that has a low impression of your customer services, I decide to
type in paypal sucks .com to my browser knowing that more often than not this added to a companys name is
usually where to find out about other people gripes.
Sure enough there is a site there which leads me to amongst others this website. Where I learn that another
user had his account "frozen" due to his use of the account while he was travelling.
Now I know the problem, I am constantly travelling between UK and US and so logging in from the UK is to be
expected, but PayPal knew this was the case last time and I was not warned about it ?
It makes sense that you should monitor the IP addresses people use, but really does logging in from the UK
constitute possible fraudulent activity ? as well as its businesses ties to the US it is also a common holiday
destination for Americans. Yet there is no warning that PayPal users should not use the accounts while on
holiday or away on business.
You are quite welcome to do some homework and actually lookup the IP address block I would use in the UK and
you will find it is actually allocated to my company, it is not even a dialup account (not that that would make it more likely
to be fraudulent, I mean we are taking about the UK not Afghanistan)
So my question is now, what do i do ? Surely the email below has been sent in error ? You really don't want to
turn down my business ? although I see no way you can reasonably expect us not to put this off for a further 12 months
in the circumstances.
My immediate problem is that I have an outstanding payment request from a sub-contractor that needs to be paid,
I agreed to pay him via PayPal and I would like to keep to that, rather than having to explain why I cannot.
Next I would like to know exactly how I resolve this problem ? I have already sent you every piece of
documentary evidence possible. I can't imagine what I will be asked of me next, but after spending many hours
last year sending e-mails, making phone calls, and sending the same faxes over and over again. I am hoping this
time the problem will resolved sooner.
Should I send you my account details ? If so what email address?
Should I just phone Charles Spencer, who delt with this last time ?
Or am I forced to go through the same thing again with an 8 week delay ?
Regards
Daren
Below is a copy of the email sent/recieved.
*******************************************************************************8
Dear Daren,
Do to the lack of response to our email concerning your restricted account.
This account has been permanently locked.
This decision will not be reviewed.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
PayPal Account Review Department
Original Message Follows:
-------------------------
Form Message
email address: [email protected]
first name: Daren
last name: xxxxx
account type: business
verification status: Verified
activity level: other
date established: 10/30/00
country type: Domestic
rc: no
rs: fr-saa
message type: locked webform
customer message: I am disappointed to again find our account locked.
The account was locked, and subsequently released on 3rd July 2001 after
sending "extensive" supporting documents to your compliance department.
Please check your records to confirm.
At that time there was an issue with my maintaining an account for my
businesses based here in the US and in the UK. The problem was resolved
with the closure of the UK account to ensure compliance with your terms and
conditions.
posted on January 18, 2002 03:05:50 PM new
I wonder what Damon's solution will be. I've always been interested to know how PayPal could possibly be so stupid as to think that they don't have to legally return the money if they permamently lock someone's account.
posted on January 18, 2002 06:04:59 PM new
So you are saying that every account that was ever permanently locked will get their money after four months? Is there a case where this hasn't happened? Because I've seen posts here and elsewhere where people are still begging you for their money. To add to that PayPal doesn't even pay interest while they are holding people's money for four months or longer. Its not like everyone who violates your terms of service is bad, just because they log on once from another country just to check/do simple tasks with their account or open another account not realizing its against the terms doesn't mean they deserve to have their money held from them for four months.
posted on January 18, 2002 06:11:22 PM new
webdesigns,
if you have 2 online businesses and operate in 2 countries,why are you not processing your sales thru your merchant account??
paypal is most suitable for sellers who do not have merchant accounts.
if you have merchant account,you have a choice,also billpoint can be used outside ebay,i dont know how many people are aware of this??
posted on January 20, 2002 12:24:53 AM new
My problem was that I trusted PayPal to protect me from scam artists but we see that didn't happen. PayPal can cater to all the frauds it wants to as far as I'm concerned. I will never do business with them again.
posted on January 20, 2002 08:36:29 AM new
dealerjim,
you have been WHINING & WHINING & WHINING for too long on this board.
do you really expect anyone to protect you from scam artists?even police cant do that all the time.
why did you do business with scam artist in the first place??
who is going to protect us from you the big time whiner.take a break!!
posted on January 20, 2002 08:37:27 AM new
Yes Cooner....we are responsible for protecting ourselves and that's why we will eventually have this company strictly regulated. We use board like this one to promote our dissatisfaction .... we warn our customers .... we sue when feasible.
Ironically in my situation Paypal has chosen to defy Article 4 of the United States Constition which provides that a judgement awarded in a court of one state is entitled to full faith and credit in the
courts of another state. Thay like having American Customers but they don't believe they should be accountable to the laws of the US. I'll continue to post on this board as long as this company defies the constitution that my ancestors fought and died for. Long Live The US!
posted on January 20, 2002 09:19:44 AM new
PayPal, stopwhining and Coonr,
All 3 of you can kiss my A%#. This is called freedom of speech. Maybe you've heard of it. Maybe PayPal shouldn't advertise buyer and seller protection when they can't provide it. On nearly every page of their website you see protection, protection, protection, until you actually need it. Thats when they let the scam artists run away with your money.
posted on January 20, 2002 11:07:51 AM new
dealerjim,
i understand your frustration.
unfortunately paypal protection program aplies to all paypal users,did they not say it will require a court subpoena for paypal to reveal his id and account information??
i recall you said you are among several who were defrauded,have you talked to other victims to see if it is feasible to get a court subpoena for all of you??
if this is on ebay,yahoo or amzn,what has the venue provider done??
if a person intends to defraud others,he willnot easily be persuaded into refunding the money,often that money is long gone,he has used it to pay rent,iou or food on the table.
posted on January 20, 2002 01:26:31 PM new
thesatelliteshop,
Luckily for us it will take more than you and dealerjim to institute any type of regulation. 12,000,000+ people seem to be happy with PayPal.
PayPal has not "chosen to defy" any part of the United States Constition. The article you refer to says you get to record your judgement in Ca. The article would be violated if Ca. refused to record and honor your judgement. Once recorded You can persue legitimate collection actions in Ca. That would not include slanderous attacks in public forums.
posted on January 20, 2002 07:21:10 PM new
I am not say anything about regualtion of companies such as PayPal, except, the minority does not get to dictate such matters. PayPal as a company, does afterall have rights also.
posted on January 20, 2002 08:26:55 PM new
Yes Coonr:
Who slandered me? It seems to me that my account was frozen and I was slandered. Paypal knows they were wrong for freezing my account yet they won't even apologize! To boot they drag their feet when making restitution. When the lawyer was trying to settle w me out of court he even said it wasn't going to be easy to get my money once I won. I knew I was going to have to hunt the money down. I'll tell you how I treat my customers....when I botch an order I take responsibility and work swiftly and diligently to resolve the issue in a timely fashion. My problems aren't really w Paypal though ..... I have a problem w the fact that the system did not work ..... they shut me down wo accountability! They assumed the role of judge, jury, and hatchetman! You were willing to destroy a man and his livelyhood wo giving a ****** ****. Whether you wanted to is besides the fact .... you were able to! That's scary! You have more power than you should. I really like Paypal .... actually I do, but unless you guys have a few more rules placed on you to limit as well as protect yourselves ....I don't see your business plan as working too well in the long run. PS: Written defamation is libel....not slander. Still I believe you'd have to prove damages as a result. I, however, have incurred actual damages as result of an action that occured before July by Paypal which can be proven. Don't sweat though .... my objective is to cure your disease and not to destroy you.
posted on January 21, 2002 08:55:05 AM newIt seems to me that my account was frozen and I was slandered.
Perhaps you do not unerstand 'slander.' You are the onw who came here and announced to the world your account was frozen. If one slandered you, it was you.
posted on January 21, 2002 03:22:11 PM new
Hello Croony:
So....You are saying Paypal is able to shut down a small businessmans cashflow for any reason what-so-ever and will do so periodically....just to show the masses who the boss is! Let me tell you this.....I now know who your bank is .... drum roll please......Wachovia Bank, N.A. Greenvill, South Carolina in Cooperation with & Payable if desired at Wells Fargo Bank, N.A..! I'll be going to the court house tommorrow to put a lean against your account! Yippeee Yooooo! Wooooopeeeeee! Despite all the obsticles you have put in between me and my money I have prevailed. Victory Victory Victory! And on top of that I'm going to be featured in Daniels New Web Site focused on this subject .... How to Sue Paypal in Small Claims Court! Applause Applause! I may even give him some advertising dollars to help him along and put my banners in his site!......Perhaps I'll even give his customer a break on my already increadibly low priced equipment!!!! The way I figure it ... The x percent of your customers that you have screwed out of money would be pretty loyal to an Anti Paypal Vender! Thank you for your time Croony.
[ edited by thesatelliteshop on Jan 21, 2002 03:46 PM ]
posted on January 24, 2002 09:31:40 AM new
"if this is on ebay,yahoo or amzn,what has the venue provider done?? "
Yahoo has been very helpful thusfar. They're "protection, protection, protection!" is real. Something about company integrity. They've answered more of my questions, and have sought to return more of my money than PayPal has... (which is NONE.)
"if a person intends to defraud others,he willnot easily be persuaded into refunding the money,often that money is long gone,he has used it to pay rent,iou or food on the table."
Aww. The lil' theif was just trying to put food on the table, and keep a roof over his head. I suppose we're the bad guys now, and they're the victim, right? How dare we try to take food off their table.
posted on January 24, 2002 09:56:52 AM new
i am glad yahoo has been helpful,many yahoo shops have been scammed by crooks using stolen cc data,and yahoo so far has been no help.
as for scam artists needing to put food on the table,i am not saying they deserve to do so with your money,i am saying it would be hard to recover the fund as they could be desperate to meet rent etc and that money is gone.
there has always been fraud in cyberspace,but back then the crime was for smaller amount,now it looks like the stakes are higher-
sell a few non existant laptops,pc etc for a few thousand a piece,soon you are talking five figures,do this for a few months until cuaght,it could be 30-40k .
i still think it has to start with the venue provider,it needs to do a better job screening the sellers and buyers.
anyone can get a scanner for under 50 dollars and start scanning books and catalog pictures or just right click items which sell well on ebay?how about the hope diamond??
posted on January 24, 2002 11:44:02 AM new
Hi Web
The only way to solve your problem is to take the matter to court.I have just finished going through arbritation with them P.S. they beat themselves. We found that they basically have NO manuals for procedures and NO customer service training in effect. When asked to define a "RED CARPET" account they're former VP of customer service couldn't define it and didn't know of any place he could fine the definition. Feel free to contact me at [email protected] and I'll be happy to assist you in anyway I can.
posted on January 24, 2002 06:57:58 PM new
Just to update people who may be following this thread, or linking to it, or maybe have found it
after having your own account frozen.
Today, I sent Damon an email containing the WHOIS lookup for the IP address in the UK
from which I would have accessed the account, proving it is allocated to our US company, As I incorrectly assumed that this was the problem.
The reply was actually very quick, although everything went downhill very quickly after that.
Here was his reply.
**************************************************
Hi Daren,
Thank you for the email.
I will need you fax in the documents that were requested. It also appears
that you have multiple accounts opened, which is a violation of our terms of
use.
As per the details in my thread, this issue was resolved
last May/June/July 2001 with Charles Spencer. I explained
that I did not consider that the account for xxxx xxxxx xxxxx LLC
belonged to "me" personally. It is a company account. He explained
that PayPal does not work this way.
I did open 1 business account for each of 2 separate businesses , both
separate legal entities for which I am the major shareholder, as I
have previously explained, in my mind this is not "opening multiple
accounts" the accounts are not "owned" by me but the legal entity
which is the company.
Charles could see my point of view but told me that the account is
tied to a person not a legal entity. Strange, but I accept that you
have your policies, even if they don't fit standard business legal
practices. I apologized for my misunderstanding and suggested that
perhaps PayPal should make this clearer in your Terms.
Anyway as I said this was all discussed a year ago, and more
importantly as far as I am concerned was resolved a year ago, there
should only be 1 account.
As for documents, no one has requested any from me this time around.
I presume that is because you already have them, I sent everything
possible last year, 4 TIMES !! The last time was to Charles Spencer
following which he released the account.
Please feel free to check your records on this matter.
Best regards,
Daren
******************************************************
The account will be locked, as there are too many inconsistencies
present with the information on the account. A check will be cut
shortly, which means it should arrive at the address listed in 1-2
weeks. Please let me know if there are issues in receiving the check.
So thats it folks...
Our account is permanently locked due to, as yet undefined, "inconsistencies".
I had not up to this point mentioned the amount of money in the account
but feel now it may be important to mention it to put this into perspective.
Last June/July 2001 time there was something around $7000 after the account
was proven to be legitimate and released by Charles Spencer.
Since then it has hardly been used, apart from a few purchases dropping the
balance to $5000. We had incorrectly assumed that leaving this balance in our
account would show good faith.
We do process through our merchant accounts, however there are internet
buyers who prefer not to use thier CC's online if they can help it. We also
develop/maintain software, web sites and advise other businesses on e-payments.
That is diffcult to do without your own experience/access. Ironically I have today
recieved an e-mail too welcome me to the PayPal Developer Network !!
andrew123s
Although we clearly havent recieved the payment yet (i will update you when
it has been recieved) I have no doubt we will be recieving it. PayPal may have
poor customer services but I do not yet think they are crooks, although I do now
doubt their long term viability. C2it may be the ones to watch, I also hear Mastercard
are working on something, we will see.
club1man
I think it is quite obvious PayPal lack any QC, I dont think anyone who has experienced
their service would disagree with you there. Your link is very interesting.
I am glad I found this forum, it has given me a good insight into PayPal and others, and
will certainly help in supporting our advice to customers.
Obviously would have preferred a better outcome, but I guess we will have to wait longer
for a serious alternative e-payment provider.
It appears I was correct to avoid taking PayPal seriously and incorporating it fully into our business, to do so would have been disasterous.
Regards
Daren
PS. To anyone who like us also does business in the UK, take a look at Payhound.com , We have
so far been happy with them. They have a deal with MSN, HOTMAIL and FREESERVE (The largest UK ISP).
