posted on March 6, 2002 12:00:11 AM new
I recently began to run my newly founded webdesign company through paypal because it was...and I quote "the easiest and cheapest way for small businesses and websites to accept payments online." So I worked myself to death 24-7 to get products finished for clients and got paid through paypal. NOT ONLY DO THEY TAKE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF WHAT I MAKE THROUGH TRANSACTIONS THEY RANDOMLY DECIDE TO FREEZE ACCOUNTS! Only a few days after I began getting paid for my hard work and services the thousands of dollars that I had made were frozen by paypal! I completed all steps needed to unfreeze the account and called customer service to receive a rude young man's response of "it's a routine check that's all." Well apparently these people make their money in an easier way than we do because they have made a habit...which is obvious through various posted law suits which i have reviewed through CNN and MSNBC...of freezing accounts when they feel they want to offering no reason other than security checks! If these are just random security checks then why, once they receive confirmation do they not unfreeze my income? I am totally and thoroughly, for lack of better words, pissed off from the lack of communication, the quality of customer service and the outright theft that paypal has bestowed upon me through their "standard checks." I just have one more note to add...do i get this back from the IRS?
NICE FRIENDLY LINKS TO CHECK OUT : http://www.aboutpaypal.org
http://www.paypalwarning.com
http://news.com.com/2100-1017-842240.html
http://www.thehillers.com/PayPalFacts.html
[ edited by charliesgold on Mar 6, 2002 12:09 AM ]
posted on March 6, 2002 11:42:11 AM new
Hi charliesgold,
My apologies for the issues you are having. PayPal does not restrict accounts randomly (please review the terms of use about what can lead to an account restriction).
Please feel free to email me your account email address ([email protected]), as I would like to see what the issue is.
Thank you for your patience. I apologize for any inconvenience this is causing you.
posted on March 6, 2002 01:03:09 PM new
OK so i emailed back Mr Damon on this issue on the same day that i had to block my bank account after paypal withdrew $1023.01 from my personal bank account. The block was put on my account as well as two afidavits which were filed to take care of the payments which were taken from my personal account without permission. I am hoping that this gets resolved otherwise further action will be necessary. After speaking with not so helpful customer service and explaining that i need some of the money from my paypal account now to get meds for my mother with Multiple Schlerosis, i was told i had to wait and there was nothing that could be done, there was no manager nor other number. Well I finally convinced a customer service agent to give the phone to a manager who was needless to say extremely pissed off that I had forced her to talk to me about this scam. She was rude and offered no resolution to the situation other than to say she would have her appeals manager call me within the day...which AS YOU CAN GUESS...has not yet happened. So the clock ticks on and no money is being received only stolen from my personal bank account! Go figure!
Oh, how I feel for you! I sincerely hope you are able to get this resolved quickly.
Just be careful how much info you give the very rude & confused people at paypal. Before you know it, they'll be asking you to fax a copy of a note from your mother's doctor (just to ensure you REALLY need YOUR money back).
I'm not trying to make light of your situation, I'm just mortified when I read these kinds of stories, especially when you start to realize this continues to happen EVERY SINGLE DAY! And yet... They're still around. They're still not regulated or policed. They're still making (stealing) money hand over fist. And they will never know, nor will they ever care, what it means to provide real customer service.
posted on March 6, 2002 03:43:18 PM new
Good luck Charlie! You're gonna need it! I used to get Damon's standard response too ... "thanks for being patient" ... now he just ignores me altogether.
My PayPal account was hacked (yes Damon ... it was HACKED) on January 26th. To this day I have been unable to speak to anyone at PayPal. They refuse to answer my emails, my snail mails, and my phone calls. Their TOS state they will tell you the results of their "investigation" within 10 days. After 10 days you're told it will be 30. My 30 days are up and now I'm being told 45.
If anyone else has had their "accounts compromised" (in other words, if your account has been HACKED), email me and let's compare notes. Obviously PayPal isn't doing a dang thing to investigate this problem. [email protected]
posted on March 6, 2002 09:54:03 PM new
I'm also frustrated with Damon's response and attitude. He seems to give a person hope that PayPal will do something, but then just ends up quoting some policy. He is not sincerely interested in trying to help or improve PayPal, but rather attempt to give the public image that he's coming to the rescue.
posted on March 6, 2002 10:16:59 PM new
An Email I recently received from paypal customer service:
"Thank you for contacting PayPal.
We have received your faxed documentation and reviewed your account. At
this time we will need shipping/tracking information for all items
purchased or transactions with the following account ( **********Inc *********@yahoo.com). Once we receive this information we will review
your account further and contact you with our decision.
Sincerely,
PayPal Account Review Department
Here's my response it is lengthy but worth the read because we're going to win this one way or another:
To Whom It may Concern,
The information you requested I am sure you can access through the Mailshop paypal account? This is a company that I do web design for and as a result receive no products just pay for the services I provided them. I am positive you can access that account and look through transactions made to my account and look over my account and see the transactions which went through also. I have received the run around from so many companies that I have called and contacted a supervisor who claimed she would have her appeals manager call me in 24 hours...needless to say they did not and I am even more frustrated now! I have received an email from Damon Billian concerning this account and expect it to be further reviewed and this account unrestricted within the next two business days as I was told it would be by three of your representatives. I worked hard for this money and from the looks of all the complaints filed against paypal and posts made through various credible organizations this is just a way to draw out the process and keep money through a completely illegal means, theft. I am sure if you contact Mailshop2002 they may even provide you with the products I spent my time 24-7 furnishing for them if you wish to go that far into this issue. I have a further complaint today which i have indeed made public through auction watch, in that paypal withdrew funds from my personal bank account without ANY AUTHORIZATION WHAT SO EVER, this had to be resolved today by going to my bank and blocking any withdrawels from your company and filing two legal affidavits a ridiculous step which I never thought i would have to take with such a well known company. My point being that I expect this situation to be resolved in the given period of two business days, meanwhile my mother is doing without medicene for multiple schlerosis something she was recently released from hospital because of and I am more than happy to let your company foot the bill for any further medical expenses accrued because of this delay in my funds which were EARNED and not STOLEN! I am more than happy to take this issue to a higher level if needs be, I have contacts within the news field of North Carolina who in turn have contact with CNN and the like. I'm sure that the other thousands of people who have contacted me about their paypal experiences and offered their sympathies, would love to give the media some insight into this issue because I know i am more than willing to take that route if i have to. And furthermore I am positive that after yet another class action suite with thousands of plaintiffs Paypal will be more in debt that it was when it began these crooked policies. Sincerely Amy
So EVERYONE who is willing and interested in taking this to the media who will offer immediate attention as opposed to the courts, should no further action be taken to correct the restrictions on our accouts please feel free to email me with your email and a name if you feel confident in doing so and we will win this once and for all! Because i'm not about to let some crook rip me off and ruin my family life!
posted on March 7, 2002 12:51:30 PM new
charliesgold;
I'm expecting you'll hear something from them soon after they read your response. (They don't tend to like the 'media threat' too much, it seems). Also - at the end of your message, you said if anyone want's to email you... But I don't remember seeing your e-mail address on there(?). Once again, good luck.
P.S. RE: getting complaints together - This is a cut & paste from club1man posted yesterday in a different thread on this message board: "...Please email your problems to [email protected] so I can compile them and hopefully submit them to a congressional hearing." You may want to contact him.
posted on March 7, 2002 01:15:19 PM new
Well, here is a news flash.
From paypals tos.
". Please note: PayPal's consumer protection programs only apply to tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and excludes everything else, including but not limited to: intangibles, services, quasi-cash and all non-tangible, non-physical goods. "
If I where you, I would use a real bank to collect my payments.
[ edited by trai on Mar 7, 2002 01:17 PM ]
posted on March 7, 2002 04:03:58 PM new
I for one am not jumping through hoops for PAYPAL. I have had my PAYPAL account for over 2 years and have never had a chargeback or a disatisfied customer. Not to mention all the FEES that PAYPAL have collected from me and my customers. Now, all of a sudden, I have money in my account {Left there from me being taken in, on promises of cash back with my debit card and earned interest on my balance ect.} and they restrict my account because I don't have a CC on file, {never needed it before; for the last 2+ years}. BS. I will let my Attorney's and the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISION handle this, might be fun to see PAYPAL jump through hoops for a change... I have advised ALL of my customers of the situation with PAYPAL and they inturn have contacted their own Attorney's and will be filing their own actions against PAYPAL.
Ps. PAYPAL won't return their phonecalls either...
posted on March 7, 2002 05:41:22 PM new
It's REAL obvious Damon is ignoring us all. He used to be a regular poster here until the heat got turned up. Perhaps he's taking a cruise with OUR money???
Well enough here. Think I'll wander over to Ebay and see if I can spot some NARU'd users! LOL
posted on March 7, 2002 09:55:09 PM new
Trai, you are correct, the tos says that. However, there is no evidence of the customer filing a complaint with PayPal or his credit card company, or that the buyer even has a problem. While the tos states what you said it did, it does not give PayPal blanket permission to confiscate funds earned by non-goods transactions if the buyer doesn't even have a problem. I don't know about specific cases but it seems that at least 1 account is restricted and posted about on this or other message boards about PayPal per day (sometimes many more). It also seems that Damon only responds to certain cases. Damon, how about helping Sheila12?
I'm shocked that the PayPal manager you (charliesgold) talked to seemed like she was so annoyed that you had be transfered to her, and that she kept acting like it was a stupid call for a csr. This is one of the many stories I've seen that sets new lows for customer service.
posted on March 8, 2002 01:13:39 AM new
There seems to be a pattern here. I have an account that was opened with a credit card. I "verified" it by giving my bank account information. PayPal has some stupid unexplanable policy that states that after verifying, the bank account becomes the default method of payment. I had a seller that did not deliver. I contacted PayPal, with no success. I stopped the payment, and the amount went to my credit card. PayPal found the seller at fault, and credited my credit card. Although no money was ever lost by anyone, they've put my account on restriction. They won't remove it until I give them authorization to debit my bank account. I'm willing to live with an unverified account which does not require a bank account, but they (Damon) won't allow it. I've been trying to work this out with Damon, but he seems more motivated to quote policy than to help with the problem. I've been on the Web since it's start. This company is the only one I've ever had a problem with. I have to believe that with people like Damon, who appears to spend more time of giving the image of helping than actually helping, this company will go down the tubes as quick as it got started!
posted on March 8, 2002 04:23:21 AM new
Ok update i received an email from two individuals claiming that they would do "whatever they could to help my situation"...ok now what? LOL this is all quite ridiculous. No only am i completely flat broke because i gave them access to my bank account but I am also being promised things that NEVER happen. I have spent numerous hours trying to get in touch with these people and finally got the number to corporate where you actually get to talk to a person who is not customer service and although they don't take immediate action you can get transferred to upper management. The number is 650-251-1100 for any of you who care to know and anyone who is interested in taking this to the media feel more than welcome to email me at: [email protected] and i will take this as far as it needs to be taken...after all i'm sure MSNBC as well as CNN would love to work this story...let alone 20-20 and 60 minutes. Well I suppose i have to go and wait some more for something that is supposed to happen! By the way i got news that Paypal is going under and is being forced to stop business, i'm not sure how true that is but there are a lot of websites like those listed in my first post where you can see that information. I hope I helped some of you at least? Sincerely Amy
P.S. We all know the customer service number doesn't work but there is also a paypal switchboard number which will transfer you to a man named Richards who will "transfer you" and hang up. He also refuses to aknowledge that there will be any kind of emergency asking "is this a fire bc i'll call 911? Well is it a bomb threat bc i'll call 911" What a jerk!
posted on March 8, 2002 09:01:36 AM new
Sounds like we may need to take this into our own hands. I happen to live nearby the PayPal headquarters. I'm sure that the San Jose paper, at a minimum, would pick up a story if there were people picketing. How many dissatisfied customers live in the Bay area?
posted on March 8, 2002 09:52:11 AM new
charliesgold;
Well, if nothing else, they're consistent. For whatever reason, that threat of contacting the media usually seems to get some kind of action from them. It must be what's caused them the biggest problems in the past.
Sheila12;
Maybe you should try that approach! It sure seems that they're not paying much attention to anything else. Start saying you're going to contact local talk radio call-in shows, etc. Maybe you'll at least get someone to look at your situation. Good luck to you both!
posted on March 8, 2002 11:03:21 AM new
andrew123s
". However, there is no evidence of the customer filing a complaint with PayPal or his credit card company, or that the buyer even has a problem."
Do any of us know this for sure? A buyer can file a complaint and not tell the seller anything.
Its been done before.
"it does not give PayPal blanket permission to confiscate funds earned by non-goods transactions if the buyer doesn't even have a problem."
When you sign on , you do give them permission.
Now If you where to ask me if i think that its always fair the way they do this, I will have to say no.
I think that the crux of most of the paypal problems on these boards is a failure by paypal to fully explain in detail to the account holder just what is going on.
Should not take 30 days or more just to explain why a account was frozen.
I can understand why this would drive people up a wall!
They do need to upgrade their custmer service!
Do hope that this works out o.k. for charliesgold. But for what he is doing, I still would only deal with a real bank.
posted on March 8, 2002 02:17:58 PM new
"it does not give PayPal blanket permission to confiscate funds earned by non-goods transactions if the buyer doesn't even have a problem."
I meant if the buyer didn't file a complaint. If a buyer does file a complaint, yes, the seller is not protected, but if they don't file a complaint with PayPal or their CC, then PayPal can't take your money.
If the seller got an e-mail saying there was a complaint, that would be one thing. It would at least explain PayPals reasoning for restricting it (its still wrong but it would at least give the user an idea of why). But from what I've seen in this message thread, PayPal restricted the account of the seller, then asked for tracking information, etc. relating to transactions. If there was a complaint and PayPal forgot to notify the user, that would make more sense. But I do not know why they would ask for information relating to transactions without telling the user why.
posted on March 11, 2002 09:53:36 AM new
OK GUYS. So i closed out my bank account after paypal returned the funds from my checking account thank God! Still waiting on the "investigation" to yield access to the rest of my funds who knows how long that will take! I did however finally get to talk to the Appeals department...who i was told doesn't take calls, by dialing the corporate number. I then proceeded to file two complaints with the SEC, Better business Bureau, and numerous news agencies: CNN, MSNBC, and with various noted newspapers who are more than willing to pick up a story like this! So I sent the letter to The NY Times, The Wallstreet Journal etc, And finally I forwarded it to 60 Minutes AND 20-20, so we should receive justice ASAP! This is great guys someone is finally going to get our money back for us since Paypal seems not to be able to do it themselves!
posted on March 11, 2002 11:51:02 AM new
Unless Damon and PayPal starts doing something different... they are gonzo! The press is already picking it up...
posted on March 11, 2002 12:01:19 PM new
Hi andrew123s,
I am aware of charliesgold's issue, as well as what set triggers off in our system. I can't cover it in a public forum.
Hi frustratedguy,
Yes, I have to respond with policy on all customer issues. I can't make exceptions based on the emotional appear of a user.
ALL customer payments are initiated by the user off of the web site (password protected). The default payment is pay with a bank account, which can be changed by the user.
If I remember your case correctly, you did not change the payment option (pay with a bank account) when you sent payment to the seller. You then had an issue with the seller and asked the bank to stop the ach transfer. This caused a rejection from your bank on funds that you were adding to the PayPal account, which will raise fraud flags.
The actions you took flag it as possible unauthorized bank account use, which is why the restriction is in place.
Your quote:
". I stopped the payment, and the amount went to my credit card. PayPal found the seller at fault, and credited my credit card. Although no money was ever lost by anyone, they've put my account on restriction. "
The payment would not have gone against your bank account unless you requested it directly from the web site.
posted on March 11, 2002 12:19:14 PM new
Well Damon has returned! But I bet he'll go back into his lurk mood after I ask him a few things.
Damon, you stated in your above post (and I quote):
"ALL customer payments are initiated by the user off of the web site (password
protected).
Let's reword that statement to make it accurate: "All customer payments are initiated by **A** user off of the web site" ... meaning any hacker can come in and send transactions from MY bank account without MY "initiating" anything.
And go ahead and quote policy by answering this question ... I notified PayPal of 4 unauthorized transactions totaling $2,950 45 DAYS ago. Your TOS state PayPal will tell me the results of this investigation within 10 days. Then KABOOM ... the 10-days suddenly becomes 30 days. When 30 days passes, you tell me it takes 45 days. Does this mean my money will be returned to me TODAY??? And if not ... please quote me PayPal's policy on this (unless of course you feel the need to keep ignoring me). I'm waaaaaaiting.
posted on March 11, 2002 12:32:59 PM new
You said putting a stop payment on something raises fraud flags? Why? Thats why an instant transfer secures the money from a credit card, or an e-check takes awhile to clear. Why would stopping one of these raise fraud flags? Does this mean whenever you stop a bank account payment you will restrict the user's account? What if it is a non-recipt of goods issue and the bank reverses the payment? While it is not common it is up to them. Is this a fraud flag?
In addition, you still have yet to respond to the investigation time issue. One user reports it is taking 45 days to investigate a problem when it should take only 10. 45 days is obscene, especially when thousands of dollars is in limbo.
posted on March 11, 2002 12:58:25 PM new
Also, you say you are aware of charliesgold's issue. While you may not be able to talk about it on a public forum, you should at least e-mail him, telling him what the issue is and why it is taking you so long to correct it. Then, if he wants to, which he probably does counting he is also sending his story to reporters/tv stations/etc., he will post it. You just saying you can't comment really doesn't cut it.
[ edited by andrew123s on Mar 11, 2002 12:58 PM ]
posted on March 11, 2002 01:20:48 PM new
my personal experience with paysuck it took them i think almost 50 days to recifty a 2400 hold on my money. was EXACTLY same reason as Sheila12 luckily i got it back and closed my account
posted on March 11, 2002 08:05:17 PM new
Damon... this has only become an emotional "appeal" because of the lack of action on PayPal's part. Just to set the record straight...
I made a purchase for $343 for an item that was suppose to ship in 24 hours. I only got an acknowledgement from PayPal, and not from the seller. I filed a complaint with PayPal. The seller contacted me, and was willing to give me a refund. He contacts PayPal. PayPal tells him not to give me a refund, since I filed a complaint. I try reaching PayPal, with not success. I call my bank to stop payment on the purchase. My bank informs me that the charge was done via ACH, and not credit card. I call PayPal's customer service people and get to talk to someone after 30 mins of waiting. They tell me that after I verify my credit card by giving my bank account, that your system defaults to the bank account. I complain... they tell me that other have complained, but they are not willing to change anything. I call back my bank to discuss, and they tell me I am allowed to stop payment on the ACH transfer, since I did not knowingly give permission. The amount was then transferred to my credit card. (Giving me the protection I wanted.) PayPal finds the buyer at fault and credits my account. Everyone has their money. PayPal puts my account on restriction because I stopped payment. I don't want PayPal to have my bank information, so I ask to have my account as "unverified". PayPal obviously has a valid credit card on file, but they insist on having permission to debit my bank account. PayPal and Damon continue to refuse and recite policies that PayPal never takes money out of bank accounts without permission and to take my account off restriction.
These are the facts. This is how PayPal and Damon treats their customers.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:19:40 PM new
Hey so good news guys! My bank account is officially closed and Paypal cannot get access to it AND WANT TO HEAR THE BEST NEWS? My friend who works for the NY Times has assured me that an article will appear on this fraud and I also received a letter from MSNBC, CNN and The Wall Street Journal saying that they are compiling data on the issue to print! Maybe this is actually going somewhere? Well John, my friend with the NY Times seems to think that this could be a big thing! YAY Thank God someone is listening!
posted on March 12, 2002 09:39:36 PM new
WOO HOO!!! Way to go Charliesgold!!! Maybe the press will be able to get some answers or at least enlighten more users of PayPal's total lack of customer service.
I was contacted today by a popular online magazine for an interview about PayPal and they are going to use my story in their article.
