posted on April 1, 2001 09:28:24 PM new
More and more nowadays, people are practicing their own version of what religion is to them, instead of the being termed as being part of any religion.
Do you think this is a growing trend, or do you think people still value being part of an organized belief system?
I think many people are practicing a hodge-podge of things and calling it religion, or professing a belief in a higher power without subscribing to one or the world's three dominant faith-based doctrines. What one believes is all about faith.
Jews, who have the Torah, parts of which are the Old Testament, are waiting on the coming of the Messiah. They reject the idea of Jesus being the son of God. They live under God's old covenants. Remember, the floods, famines and such in the Old Testament? God was a venegeful God then, LOL.
Christians believe Jesus is the living embodiment of God who preached many things that contradicted the laws in the Old Testament. Some Christians use the Old and New Testament to support their beliefs, others only the Word spoken in the new Book that details Christ's presence. Hence, the many factions of Christian groups.
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet and revere him as such, but not as holy as Mohammad. If you read the Koran, many of the stories are similar to the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
These three religions, IMO, have so many similarities, that they are connected. But it's the faith it's members subscribe to that separates.
For the record, I am Christian.
I am reminded of a discussion that I had with a young member of the Nation of Islam (NOI), the totally unorthodox faction that has served more as a black nationalist organization than a religious entity. In talking with this individual, I asked how he could believe that the late Elijah Muhammad (the NOI leader who died in 1975) was alive in a space ship circling the world, waiting for his movement to come into complete power.
This college graduate said, "Don't you believe Jesus is the son of God?" To which I replied, "Yes, I do."
His reply: "It's all about faith."
Couldn't agree more.
*edited for typos*
[ edited by Baduizm on Apr 1, 2001 10:06 PM ]
posted on April 1, 2001 10:34:41 PM new
Hi Badu....Thanks for your insight!
Would you say I'm a Christian?
I believe the Bible is to be interpreted by the reader and not by a group of people.
I think God speaks to each individual this way.
I think EVERYONE is the "son of God", so I'm not really sure about Jesus being a special human, closer to God.
I don't think God dishes out selective miracles. I think we create them.
I believe that animals, insects, etc., are just as important as we are, and have feelings like ours.
I believe in the Big Bang theory....actually I believe there were multiple Big Bangs. Not only do I think there's at least microbial life on most other planets, I think there's other universes also. For these reasons, my thoughts about God are more along the lines of an energy that's inside everything (in so many words).
I don't know who has the same beliefs, but while I consider myself a good person, I don't know if I could say I'm religious.
If I'm asked (rarely) I usually turn red & make something up.
I have friends that feel the same way, but wondered if this is a growing trend?
Terry
(Edited for dumb spelling errors)
[ edited by kraftdinner on Apr 1, 2001 10:37 PM ]
posted on April 1, 2001 10:45:24 PM new
Terry, You ask whether you are a Christian.
Do you believe that Jesus is/was the son of God? And if so, do you believe that he died to atone for our sins? I am not trying to get preachy here, Lord knows that is not my style.
I subscribe to many or your belief systems Terry, except for one: I have accepted Christ. And I can only hope this acceptance gets me into Heaven. Don't get me wrong, for I have sinned many, many, many many (dayum) times.
But I just ask for enlightendment and forgiveness.
Yes I pray, and pray and pray, for quite a lot.
I used to be a much terrible person, before I started asking God for help. Krs, or some one else from my chatboard past will tell you that, LOL.
[ edited by Baduizm on Apr 1, 2001 10:48 PM ]
posted on April 1, 2001 10:58:14 PM new
Badu, it IS all about faith, and religion provides a salve for sores to those who can believe. Call it an opiate without any impication of illegal drug use.
It works for some people and there are a host of choices of ways to practice the enhancement of faith.
There is an element in many personalities which seeks out groups of sympathetic (call it like minded) others. Organized religion is groupings of people of a common belief and there's nothing wrong with that.
There have been and will be offshoots from those groups either for reasons to do with objections to in-place regulation or from a desire to find another way to the same end. Many times divisions result from interpersonal differences between individuals that bring about the formation of other new sects. Much of it just squabbling, and the history of christianity is filled with such things.
Organized religion will continue because there are leaders and there are followers.
I've got to leave for now, but I want to repeat, briefly, what I posted in a locked thread (are there open threads? ): to me the mystery, or the magic of religion is best shown by the philosophical similarity across cultures. People of faith around the world, otherwise unconnected and often with no contact whatsoever have come to believe the very same things. There are several names for a god but take away the name and there's not much that's functionally different in the faith of one in comparison to that of another.
"I think God speaks to each individual"
Christians belive this yes, through the power of the Holy Spirit which resides in their soul. The Holy Spirit enters one when they accept Christ as Savior and Lord.
"I'm not really sure about Jesus being a special human"
Christians belive that Jesus WAS GOD incarnate. He was FULLY human and also FULLY God. He had the power to deliver himself from the cross...but he chose to die for the sins of all humanity. (Grace.)
You have made some very interesting comments. It is good that you are thinking about what you believe. I enjoyed reading your post.
I will say a "Christian" without Chtist would only be an "ian"...and "Christmas" without Christ is only "mas".
posted on April 1, 2001 11:42:42 PM new
"preached many things that contradicted the laws in the Old Testament."
Baduizm, I don't see it that way but I think I understand where you are coming from in your comment.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
[ edited by jt on Apr 1, 2001 11:50 PM ]
posted on April 2, 2001 12:10:22 AM new
I think that kraftdinner has his/she hand on the pulse of this world with this one very vital question. I think that Science has played a very big part in the evolution of organized religions; that is, the way that organized religions are perceived and practiced. I see it as splitting the road into two parts: science that causes organized religions to evolve and Fundamentalism, which is the rejection of science.
Certainly, science has opened the eyes of most people and for those that have seen the truth of what science has to offer discover that their faith does not have to be compromised. But there is also a backlash, a trend to rebel against this quickly evolving world and it attracts many new followers every day. Many find the long texts to be boring reading at best, and confusion at worst. Instead, they would rather that someone else do their work for them - someone hopefully more capable of comprehending the complexities and subtle nuances of the written texts, digest the passages, and spit out a sensible answer. This is the way that Fundamentalism works. After all, isn't this how we often accomplish what we need to do?
If pre-digested organized religion leaves you with heartburn and an upset stomach, you aren't alone. But there will always be those that will have to depend upon others to lead them correctly, and those that decide for themselves what is correct will have to be wary. If you think that such blindness is not a danger to us all, notice how they voted in this last election and we are all paying the price for it now.
So, can you believe in God, but not belong to a religion?
What if you have some fundamental differences and you ARE a part of an organized group?
Have any of you been in that position? Do you just keep it to yourself, or are differences discussed freely (without judgement) in your group (if you belong to one)?
Badu....I'm not sure what I believe when it comes to Jesus and certain interpretations of the Bible, but I'm leaning more towards thinking Jesus was a human being with great insight (like the Dali Lama, etc). I feel stupid even saying that because I know most people do believe Jesus was Christ in the flesh. Would I be accepted into heaven with that belief?
I have to say, one thing that really bothered me about the Bible, from the first time I heard it as a young girl.....that animals don't go to heaven because they have no souls. Does anyone believe that? Do you still want to go there if that's true??
Of course, I could go on all night about my personal discrepancies with the Bible, but won't (oh, thank goodness!! ).
posted on April 2, 2001 12:44:26 AM new
"For those that have seen the truth of what science has to offer discover that their faith does not have to be compromised."
Good point. That topic could get pretty deep since you have to divide "fundamentalists" into the "old earth creationists" and the "young earth creationists", etc..if that's what you had in mind at all.
"organized religion leaves you with heartburn and an upset stomach, you aren't alone"
Even those involved in organized religion stuggle with this...LOL.
Here is a really good Bible resource if you have a topic in mind and want to go straight to scripture relating to it:
http://wbsa.logos.com/default.asp
(Of course it often requires reading of scriptures before or after rather than taking one verse out of context.) At any rate, those interested in probing, and yet hating the lengthy texts might find it more user friendly.
Kraft,
"Have any of you been in that position?"
Yes.
"Do you just keep it to yourself, or are differences discussed freely (without judgement) in your group (if you belong to one)?"
Both. If I can't discuss it freely, I move on to a different group. Sometimes we agree to disagree..and that's OK. A group is as imperfect as the members. (See comment above.)
I can't answer your salvation question because you addressed it to someone else.
~edited out something because I misunderstood the question.
[ edited by jt on Apr 2, 2001 12:46 AM ]
"that animals don't go to heaven because they have no souls. Does anyone believe that? Do you still want to go there if that's true??"
I don't believe that animals have souls. However, if you love animals and don't want to go there without them then there WILL be animals there. Christ said He went to "prepare a place for YOU"...YOU will have animals. (I will have NO dogs.)
My friend once said, "I hope heaven is not boring because there is no conflict." I think about THAT. LOL..I REALLY want to take KRS.
Edited to add this.
[ edited by jt on Apr 2, 2001 12:54 AM ]
posted on April 2, 2001 03:52:44 AM new
Religon is such an interesting topic yet it's one that many/most people cannot discuss civilly. People have different beliefs (or no beliefs) about lots of things. I don't *hate* someone because they like cats instead of dogs. I don't think they're *wrong* or *going to hell* because they prefer strawberry shortcake to chocolate ice cream. Yet so many people think someone that believes in a different religon is *bad* or *wrong*.
Let's be honest - no religon can be *proven* - they're all *a matter of faith*. As long as *your beliefs* don't infringe on *my beliefs*, I have no problem with it.
posted on April 2, 2001 04:47:26 AM new
"There is an element in many personalities"
I will go further and say that except for a few defective people who are the sort who commit crimes against other people with no remorse or compassion the need to worship is hardwired into us just the same as the ability to absorb language.
People who view animals as equal to humans scare me. Given that fewer animals have opportunity to be in conflict with them they will always favor animals. Perhaps if they had experience with a hoard of animals eating the crop they needed to survive the winter or were attacked by a large carnovoire they would lose the fairy tale view. In the mean time they feel competant to form policy that regulates how I treat animals.
A real good example was a friend of my Aunt.
She and her husband had an old arthritic asthmatic Chihwahwa (that doesn't look right - the little mexican dogs)with heart disease.
They could not travel or enjoy life in many ways because they had to stay home and take care of "Ponco"
When my Aunt and Uncle visited one day the husband went out on the lake in front of their home fishing and took the dog. A nasty thunderstorm rolled in with high winds and lightning. You could not even see the boat out on the lake and he did not have a chance at all to row in before the storm was there.
All the woman was talking about was how scared the little dog must be. My Uncle was so disgusted he told the lady off. He said your husband is in mortal danger and all you can think of is the damn dog. If I knew that as your husband I would leave you with the damndable dog and go get a real life alone or with someone who cared about me. As it is he said we won't be back to socialize with someone whoe's thinking is so screwed up they make a god of a dog. True to his word they never see them anymore. I would feel the same.
posted on April 2, 2001 05:37:28 AM new
Well.... I think there are several lists going around regarding why dogs are better than people....
But the really neat thing about religion is in the U.S. you can pretty much believe what you want. Whether it is your leader orbiting in a space ship, or golden tablets buried here in America with a secret language written on them.
However, there are some fundemental sects that would, if they had the power, to limit our beliefs, either directly, or indirectly through political actions.
Me thinks the best thing is that while I may disagree or find your faith silly, I hope I never attempt to deny you the right to hold that faith.
If there is a heaven, I can think of several dogs I have had the ocaission to know I hope will be there, and there are far more "holy" people I hope I never come across in this world or the next.
By the way, the Twilight Zone did a thoughtful episode on dogs in heaven.
posted on April 2, 2001 05:50:25 AM new
If there was a steamroller careening down the street and I had the choice of pushing a single member of 99% of the current human population out of the way or pulling a half-dead, three-legged dog out of the way, I'd come out of the situation with a new pet.
"Is organized religion a thing of the past?" At least in this country, I could only hope so...but there are still enough stragglers out there who decide that it is necessary to put their beliefs in some almighty power rather than themselves. Or, even worse, they put their beliefs in the purported agent of that power.
I view this as two different things: Religion, which I see as allowing an external voice (i.e., reverend, holy man, Swaggart, Manson) to tell you how you should interpret your life and your place in the world, and Spirituality, in which you yourself do the same thing on your own.
I can be a very spiritual man, but I make it a point to never trust a man with religion. He's already sold himself short and sold himself out, so there is no limit to what else he can do.
I believe that organized religion is possibly on the way out in the USA, no matter what our "President" may strive to do (well, actually what our "President's" advisors are striving to do), but I doubt the practice will end in the rest of the world, in which the USA is really a very small part. One look at the Middle East and Northern Ireland will tell you that...lots of people killed for basically nothing.
----
TRC
"Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling sin, selling God
The numbers are the same on their credit cards." --Queensryche
posted on April 2, 2001 07:34:36 AM new
Honestly, people have been predicting the demise of "organized religion" for at least 300 years, since the European Enlightenment. Thirty years ago God "was dead" but clearly America is more religous today then it was then and the trend is toward that direction. Unless I was just oblivious, America seems more religous today then it was only a few years ago. It will probably see-saw back and forth forever and appear to be trending towards one way or the other in perpetuity. Those who hope religion will disappear are deluding themselves, the same way those who think evolution is "only a theory" are deluding themselves.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Apr 2, 2001 07:35 AM ]
As it has since the 1950s, the baby boomer generation has had a big impact on the society around it. That generation is now in or approaching their 50s. It's not too surprising that they are now more and more contemplating their own mortality.
posted on April 2, 2001 08:09:19 AM new
Bollocks. What simplistic woman's magazine did that come from?
What does religion have to do with contemplating mortality? Certainly people in desperate mire try to buy their way out through professed faith, but is that religion or simple bargaining?
posted on April 2, 2001 08:15:12 AM new
Well actually, Ken, it was my observing (as a teenager) of the hypocricy of many of those who professed to be religious that originally led me down the road towards atheism.
posted on April 2, 2001 08:18:18 AM new
Knowing you, I'm sure that you overestimated their age at the time. They were likely in their late 20s which tosses your premise like a cat does a hairball.
posted on April 2, 2001 08:23:27 AM new
I think that group attachment and organization is important to some
people and it will always be with us.
Unfortunately, organized religion becomes exclusive and devisive.
I have only studied the Bible as literature so I don't know a lot
about all religions.
An ideal solution would be a universal religion, but of course that
will never happen.
I like the Beattles answer..."Imagine"
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one.
