posted on May 20, 2001 08:11:06 PM new
Oddish - See, that's what I mean. Different reports, different statements. What I read on MSNBC this morning (a sub-link off one I posted earlier) it said the prosecutor had filed the rape charges because the baby's birth certificate showed the mothers age at the childs birth was 13. So when you read that the prosecutor says birth cert. shows one thing, and the parents say they didn't have sex until she was 15....that makes me wonder. Guess we'll see in July when the case goes to trial.
Also you said, "If they were concerned with upholding the law they would be going after people like the Kingstons with so much documented abuse it is pathetic..." I know I read where they said they didn't charge him with polygamy, but rather charged and convicted him of child abuse. Sex with under-aged young girl (a wife). I believe he was sentenced to 5 years.
All this under-age marriage, very young girls being married to old men, relatives, etc...makes me ill. Like you stated oddish, it was your choice to marry young, but that was your choice, you weren't forced to marry some old man. I don't understand why it always seems one reads these young girls are married off to old farts and not young men. (I mean once they reach the age of consent.)
posted on May 20, 2001 08:47:00 PM newsulyn1950 - Thank you so much for your explanation. I thought they were one in the same (the names of the religion and the church) but by some of the posts, wasn't sure if I'd understood correctly. I'd read many articles today and in each Green either referred to himself as a Morman, or was referred to in that way. But when some were saying he wasn't....then I thought maybe these were two different religions.
It is confusing even between the 3 local channels here there are conflicting reports. Hard to tell which is the absolute truth.
The Kingston was charged with child abuse buthis sentence was a very small one in my opinion. Tom Green is looking at 25 years to life and Kingston gets 5 years!! (going off what you said I can't remember exactly what his sentence was)
Also those were 2 separate Kingston brothers. The father was charged with abuse for beating the girl for running away and the uncle was charged with rape of a minor for forcing her into marriage and then raping her. Those aren't the only things they have done. Just this last summer a baby of one of the Kingston men was killed. They said she fell out of her high chair forward and bonked her forehead. However they found she had blunt trama to the back of her head as well. They arrested the babysitter (another Kingston) in her death and last I heard were looking into the fact that 5 Kingston children have died under "accidents" in the past few years.
I hate the under-age marriage stuff too. The problem is these groups are really so far underground people don't even know these kids exist. They have them at home with no birth certificates. Literally they aren't known to exist at all.
But every now and then on of them will get away or leave. Just a few weeks ago a girl from northern Arizona where there is a large group of polygamists ran away to an uncles house in St. George because she was being forced to marry. The *&^$%$%$ child services sent her back to her parents!!!!
They are wasting time on Tom Green when there is so much they really could be doing to help the innocent children in some of these abusive cases.
I also want to say that while there are several factions of this underground polygamy with questionable moral practices involving their children there are also many which marry after 18 and are very normal people. I live 2 houses down from a polygamist family. Their children are sweet and polite and very well behaved. Happy and a joy to have around. The wife (she is the only one living at that house each wife has her own) is very nice and outgoing and often joins us for neighborhood events.
Do I think she or her family should be arrested for their beliefs?....NO
Do I believe men who prey on little kids and marry off their daughters in an incestuous relationship should be arrested?....YES
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on May 20, 2001 09:36:38 PM new
Oddish - Thanks for sharing. It's sad when any child is abused, no matter who's doing the abusing. Take care.
Well, I've enjoyed reading this thread, and I've especially enjoyed reading the posts from those who are/were Mormons. I love learning about the religious practices/beliefs of others.
Sorry to all about continually spelling 'Mormon' incorrectly in all my posts, I just noticed.
posted on May 20, 2001 09:49:19 PM new
Just in case anyone is curious about what a "Mormon" is or isn't here are two sites. The first is the "official" site, the second one (although not sanctioned by the church) is very accurate and has a good overview of the basic beliefs.
I am posting these for general information only to help show why Green would not be considered a Mormon by most Latter Day Saints. Hopefully nobody will take offense or view it as promoting, it is not intended to be. You might think we are "off the wall", but you will find we are interesting.
Sorry I do tend to get a little wordy in this thread LOL
I too very much enjoy learning about others beliefs. I mentioned earlier that the Dali lama was here and I found it facinating to hear what he had to say and just how much we had in common.
sulyn1950
HI nice to meet you
I'm glad you posted those links. I would rather have someone dislike me or my beliefs based on my real beliefs and not what people "think" I believe.
posted on May 20, 2001 10:19:37 PM new
Nice to meet you too oddish!
Yep, I have to admit I do have friends tell me I'm wierd, but they won't hold it against me! LOL
I was hesitant to post the links, afterall wars have been started over religion you know...I checked the CG's and couldn't see where it would break any rules. Then I thought maybe inquiring minds might like to know and besides, nobody has to "click" do they???
Good Nite!
[ edited by sulyn1950 on May 20, 2001 10:32 PM ]
posted on May 20, 2001 10:44:39 PM new
Oddish,
I am glad you posted. I was all set in thinking My way and by listening to your point of view I can kind of start to see things a little bit differently on this case. I see what you are saying about them focusing on this case and neglecting other cases-- I do, and I do understand that the wife is now 30.
I respect all people of all other religions as I am still searching for my own. I do have trouble with the idea of polygamy (bigamy) and I think it should be against the law. On the other hand I also feel like it is absolutely none of my business what other people do with their lives as long as they are of age (18+) and have NOT been "promised" as someone else said earlier.
This whole thread has given me a lot to think about and I thank you for your input.
Take care. :0)
Edited to ask what is the difference between bigamy and polygamy?-- I am too tired to look it up. I know there are many of you out there who are smarter than I am this evening. :0)
[ edited by ashlandtrader on May 20, 2001 10:47 PM ]
posted on May 21, 2001 04:34:12 AM new
godzillatemple wrote:
"With regard to the fact that many religions in the world practice polygamy, in many of those religions [and countries where the religions are practiced], women have basically no rights and are treated like chattel. Men can get a divorce simply by declaring tha marriage void, and the woman can then be tossed out on the street. But if a woman is unfaithful or wants out of the marriage, she can legally be killed."
True. But right here in the US live adherents to a faith whose religious law permits polygamy. Like Mormons, these people follow the law of the land where they live, so polygamy is theoretically not practiced by them here.
Unlike Mormons, these people's religious laws have not been changed to reflect the law of the land. It's more a case that their religious law allows for, but does not require it, so their religious leaders decided that following the law of the land in such a matter was the sensible thing to do.
Within this faith, marriage is literally a contract, women are not considered chattel, and indeed have specific rights which are spelled out in the marriage contract. Either a husband or a wife may seek divorce, and although the man is the one who must give one, even the strictest adherents allow for situations in which the man should be compelled by religious authorities to give his wife a divorce if she wants one.
So far, so good. Live and let live; maybe they're a little quaint, these people, but there's nothing for us to stick our noses into here. But where the word "theoretically" comes into play is when the man refuses to grant his wife a divorce. Because the religious law has never been changed the man may legally remarry, according to both the law of the land and religious law, but the woman may not (according to religious law).
Yes, the woman may obtain a civil divorce herself. But without the religious divorce her choice is to be a grass widow, unable to remarry, or to leave the faith. Too many divorced women in this religious group wind up neither married nor unmarried, as they would not choose to leave their faith.
Neither state nor federal authorities involve themselves in these matters, which is as it should be, IMHO, and precisely the reason why I'm so troubled by both the implications and the ramifications of the Green case.
"Again, I don't have a problem with the THEORY of polygamy, but I think the way it usually ends up being PRACTICED merits making it illegal."
No argument here, but how do civil authorities decide whose religious beliefs/practice re: polygamy merit intervention, and whose do not? Do they decide on the basis of the mainstream's perception of a particular religious group?
Thanks to all the Latter-Day Saints who shared their thoughts in this thread.
(edited to ask, where are my manners? Thanks to everyone else too.)
[ edited by tabbinosity on May 21, 2001 04:37 AM ]
posted on May 21, 2001 08:11:22 AM new
Ok, here's my two cents.
I don't think this case attacks the freedom to practice religion amendment. Green calls himself a mormon. Now since mormons threw out the multiple marriages, would you still consider him a mormon? He consider's himself from the old belief system. What church does he go to that practices the old belief system? Anybody can say I do this because its part of my religion(whether its legal or not). Is there an actual church that says you can practice such things? If there is then you can justifyingly use "it goes against my admendment rights"if under legal attack. People shouldn't hide behind that just for the sake of getting away with it if they know its illegal. It sorta taints the true reason why we have that admendment in the first place.
Oddish- Did they just collect welfare for only 10 months is 1999? Because with a link provided on this thread of an article stating they collected welfare since 1995. I wish the media would get their story staight.
posted on May 21, 2001 08:53:11 AM new
There are many LDS churchs that knowingly have bigamists members. But this still doesn't apply to free exercise. The use of peyote pre-dates whites coming to North America, and the Supreme Court still would not allow Native Americans the use of the herb as free exercise.
As I said before, this cult publicly denies polygamy, but privately accepts it. The basic beliefs regarding the males godship in heaven demands the increase of his family fold for his "heavenly" minions. The more secret names he can call out in heaven, the more magnified his bliss. Al La HO !
Green was singled out because he has been on the talk show circuit for many years flaunting his lifestyle. The authorities, schools, and church leaders know these things have been going on for decades, many secretely practice it themselves, put once brought into the public eye, denial is the watch word. The wealthy family mentioned earlier raping and kidnapping their own daughter/neice was heavily involved in the LDS church and was involved with many LDS politicians. The millions they made through the construction business would never have happened in Utah without church approval.
This cult publicly denies these realities so when their young men ride a bicycle up to your door to convert you, you'll open the door.
Green also claims there are at least 30,000 to 50,000 bigamist families in Utah. I suppose these huge numbers are just coincidence and has nothing to do with LDS church being based in that state.
Someone mentioned in another post that no one is forced into this cult or brainwashed. However, it is clear that these poor females are brow beat from day one into the slave mentality that produces these kinds of wretched "families".
While serial monogamy can produce just as bad of a result for wives and children, there is no "christian" church I am aware of that supports it.
In any event, I am truely shocked at some of the responces of the females on this board. I hope my daughters are stronger and have more self respect than to involve themselves in incestuous, low self worth, low self esteem, lifestyles.
[ edited by reamond on May 21, 2001 08:55 AM ]
posted on May 21, 2001 09:55:44 AM new
Dark ages. Where women are similar to the stepford wives. I dont understand it, even after reading these 3 pages. I guess I was raised with alittle more gumption than to let some man have more than one wife and share what I consider mine. Him. Just like I wouldnt understand a woman having more than one husband. Like someone up there said...weird.
posted on May 21, 2001 09:56:39 AM new"As I said before, this cult publicly denies polygamy, but privately accepts it."
"In any event, I am truely shocked at some of the responces of the females on this board. I hope my daughters are stronger and have more self respect than to involve themselves in incestuous, low self worth, low self esteem, lifestyles."
It's pretty obvious you don't really understand anything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I have never met anyone associated with the church who privately accepts polygamy. It is not taught or advocated in any way, shape or form in any LDS church.
I have been taught that I do not have to feel ashamed or worthless because I chose to place my homelife and family 1st on my list of priorities. Child rearing is one of the most important things any person can ever do. It is an important responsibility and not to be taken lightly. I was never made to feel "less a person" because I did not work outside the home while my child was young.
In a healthy relationship the man and the woman are partners and have mutural respect for each other. One does not dominate the other. I believe you will find many that think this way despite their religious beliefs. My church just happens to teach it.
I don't know what women on this board you are referring to since I haven't found a single post where any person felt an incestous relationship was OK and I don't think I saw any evidence that any woman felt they were in a "low self esteem, low self worth lifestyle".
I suppose your views can serve to show that relegious persecution is alive and well in the world. It could also serve to show, we can all make statements whether they can be supported by fact or not.
It you want to continue to insist that all Mormons are uneducated, incestuous cultist, nothing I say will change your mind. You are entitled to your opinion even if it is misinformed.
posted on May 21, 2001 10:01:04 AM new
What is the case is that as a female LDS, you couldn't say anything derogatory about the church teachings or you would be booted out like all the other females who questioned the male lead church.
The only LDS you will hear say anything negative about the LDS is an ex-member, and not necessarily by choice.
posted on May 21, 2001 10:44:17 AM newreamon-believe it or not I had already suspected that.
Most "ex" anything have little good to say about what they are "ex" from. Sometimes it is justified sometimes not.
Religion is personal. It should not be forced on anyone. It should not be denied anyone.
You have your reasons for feeling the way you do, I have mine for feeling the way I do. If anyone taught you women were "subservant" to men it was not sanctioned. Just because the man is considered the head of the family, does not give him the right to dominate. That is a fact I have never heard disputed by anyone associated with the church in my area.
I also am not so naive that I believe there are not exceptions and that there are not people who twist the teachings to their benefit. Green is an example of that. I also know that what is taught in theory is not always applied in fact. I also am well aware that our doctrine could lead to unhealthy interpretations. It saddens me that you might actually believe we are all like that. Take care and I sincerely hope you will find your peace.
posted on May 21, 2001 11:03:23 AM new
As a female you should also know you do not speak for the church, nor are females involved in its guidance or priesthood, nor are you permitted in the sanctums where we males made the rules for you to follow.
posted on May 21, 2001 12:09:44 PM new
You still have told me nothing that does not indicate to me that you have a slanted/misguided view of the church. I have never presumed to speak on behalf of the church, but I can state my personal observations and my personal understanding.
You have your views, I have mine and somewhere in the middle there is the truth. Hopefully, I will not be viewed by all as just a dumb, brainwashed wierdo promoting incest or abuse of women and children beleiving it is devinely ordained. The reason I posted in the first place was hopeful to show that it is not the view of my church, but it appears that is how we are preceived by many. That's very sad. I have said what I wanted and just hope some will at least realize there are two views!
posted on May 21, 2001 12:09:57 PM new
Let me give some background on the church that may help clear up the confusion.
After Joseph Smith was killed there was a group of people who left the main body of the church because they didn't believe in practicing polygamy. This group named itself the Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints and is no referred to as the RLDS church. They are based in Missouri and last I heard were changing their name to avoid the confusion.
Then when the church said they were no longer practicing polygamy there was another body of people who left the main church because they wanted to practice polygamy. They refer to themselves as Fundamentalist Mormons and most of them are here in Utah. Since they refer to themselves as "mormons" it can be confusing. They are a separate religion than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and do not claim to be a part of the main body though they kept the name. So when Tom Green refers to himself as a "mormon" he is referring to the fundamentalists and not the LDS church as it stands now.
Green also claims there are at least 30,000 to 50,000 bigamist families in Utah. I suppose these huge numbers are just coincidence and has nothing to do with LDS church being based in that state.
It has everything to do with the church being here. They broke off from the church and stayed here. It has nothing to do with the church santioning it.
The rumors that the church does sanction polygamy have been flying around for decades.
If the church is supposed to practice this in such secret then how do you know about it? That's not a very well kept secret is it? It's very easy to throw out accusations with no proof. Unfortunaly the way human nature is there will always be those who believe the negative retoric without knowing the facts. I suppose that's the point to cast dispersions on that which you hate for whatever reason. I am quite certain there are many points of doctrine for which we really do believe that you could get people all riled up over. Why not use one of those? I have NO problems standing behind what I really do believe and hold dear but it really chaps my hide to defend false accusations with no bearing in fact whatsoever.
As a female in this church for 29 years I can assure you I am in no way a second class citizen or a "stepford wife". I think my husband would at times wish I would be a little more I think for myself, I do what I want, I choose to accept the doctrine or not just like in any other religion. This religion teaches that woman are to be treated with respect and kindness. Where people get the idea we are brow beat or looked down upon or have low self esteem I have no idea. I can only assume that people who believe that don't know any LDS woman.
I have been taught to always show kindness to people, to be tolerant of others beliefs and supportive of their needs. There are many times I fail and end up telling them what an @SS I think they really are. Gratefully this isn't one of those times.
cyanide
That is what has been on the local news here. Even the DA said that. 10 months in 1999.
ashlandtrader
HI..very nice to meet you
Polygamy \Po*lyg"a*my\, n. [Gr. ?; cf. F. polygamie.] 1. The having of a plurality of wives or husbands at the same time; usually, the marriage of a man to more than one woman, or the practice of having several wives, at the same time;
Polygyny \Po*lyg"y*ny\, n. [Poly- + Gr. ? woman, wife.] The state or practice of having several wives at the same time; marriage to several wives.
Polyandry \Pol`y*an"dry\, n. [Poly- + Gr. ?, ?, man, male: cf. F. polyandrie.] The possession by a woman of more than one husband at the same time.
Bigamy \Big"a*my\, n. [OE. bigamie, fr. L. bigamus twice married; bis twice + Gr. ? marriage; prob. akin to Skt. j[=a]mis related, and L. gemini twins, the root meaning to bind, join: cf. F. bigamie.] (Law) The offense of marrying one person when already legally married to another.
Polyfidelity and/or Polyamory refers to all forms of multi-partner relating between adults which are ethical and consensual.
"In any event, I am truely shocked at some of the responces of the females on this board. I hope my daughters are stronger and have more self respect than to involve themselves in incestuous, low self worth, low self esteem, lifestyles."
As one of the women that you referred to above as "shocking," I want you to know that I am proud to be included in the group. We responded, not with disgust as you did, but with understanding and decency.
I want to wish you well in raising children who are not abused, with
"low self worth, low self esteem, lifestyles."
Education and knowledge that there is merit to be found in differing life styles and beliefs enable children to understand the people of this world with a feeling of sensitivity, respect and understanding.
My two daughters have self worth and self esteem. One, has a Phd from Yale. The other, an MBA from the University of Maryland. But beyond their formal education, I am very proud that they have the decency and understanding not to react to any minority or life style with disgust.
posted on May 21, 2001 12:36:30 PM new
Just because a particular belief is held by a particular faith, does not make that belief good, or just, or right. Some religious tenets are WRONG, and believing in them does not make them right.
Inquiring minds should be quick to see that God never wrote anything down. He spoke to prophets, who wrote down what they heard, and their words were subsequently translated and interpreted.
What we're left with is some minister in Pothole, Nebraska who goes into convulsions and claims his babble is direct from God, i.e., the Word Of God. Religion has been used to shackle men and women since time began.
posted on May 21, 2001 12:55:31 PM new"Just because a particular belief is held by a particular faith, does not make that belief good, or just, or right. Some religious tenets are WRONG, and believing in them does not make them right"
Who gets to decide what is good, just or right?
Exactly how do you determine a religious tenet is WRONG?
We each have to decide that for ourselves don't we?????
I see Oddish and I seem to think a lot alike, I guess we've been "brainwashed"
[ edited by sulyn1950 on May 21, 2001 01:02 PM ]
I don't know about brainwashed but I have had my mouth washed out a few times...guess the brainwashing didn't take too well huh? hehehe
Helen
I've read you for a while now. I wouldn't say you don't believe in anything..you seem to have strong beliefs and don't mind standing up for them while still respecting others. I gotta respect that in a person
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on May 21, 2001 01:13:47 PM newSulyn, let me turn it around for you. Who decides what is right? If my neighbor decides that genital mutilation, or stoning, or any other barbaric custom, is divined by God, then who am I to disagree?
God has the power to wipe this world out with a thought. Certainly our puny opinions don't matter much. None of us knows Why, but we do know right and wrong. Thus the expression, "better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick."
posted on May 21, 2001 01:15:01 PM newHJW: I also currently have no religious beliefs, and like you I respect all other viewpoints on the issue of religion. Well, except the really weird ones, that is....
Barry
---
"all people who make generalizations are scum!"
[ edited by godzillatemple on May 21, 2001 01:15 PM ]
