posted on June 8, 2001 09:49:30 PM new
For some, being locked up is not punishment. Charles Manson is a prime example. He is a happy man. "Three meals a day and all the sex I want." Will he ever be punished for the murders he was responsible for?
Given a choice, Ted Bundy would certainly have chosen life in prison over the death penalty. As the end approached, he suddenly began to reveal the "truth" in the hope it would save his life, a life to be spent locked up.
If the death penalty is indeed the lesser punishment, why do most of those convicted fight to stay alive? Even if it means that every day of that life will be spent locked up?
posted on June 8, 2001 10:04:06 PM new
Something is wrong with the penal (no pun intended) system, when prisoners "enjoy" being in prison. Ve have vays of making people uncomfortable without violating their constitutional rights. Take away luxuries such as companionship, radio, tv and other forms of entertainment. Granted, every day breathing is better than not but the death penalty is not the answer.
posted on June 8, 2001 10:12:42 PM new
While the morality of a Death Penalty is a strong arguement, it is seldom observed just how dangerous it is to give any governmental body the authority to execute an American citizen for any reason. It is very dangerous to give permission to governement to kill citizens in the name of justice, or to allow them to abuse or commit violence upon our children in places of learning. Timothy McVey is mentally ill and it shows when he has no remorse for the small children and ordinary people he was responsible for killing. If you execute him, what will he learn? Will that bring back anyone from the dead? Will that give closure to a single living victim or relative of a victim? No!
I am not trying to say that Tim is not rsponsible for his actions. But killing him won't do US any good. Does it "send the right message" to others? It never has and it never will. Does it keep the people who will commit these crimes from doing so again in the future? It never has in the past and it never will in the future. Killing Timothy McVey will not stop the next person from doing it and it is dangerous to give the government the authority to kill any of us, so what are we doing?
posted on June 8, 2001 10:43:21 PM new
Timothy McVeigh is not insane, at least not in a legal sense. He was not out of touch with reality. He knew bombs kill people, he knew society would view what he did as wrong and punish him for it, he knew enough about the consequences of his acts that he did what he could to avoid detection.
McVeigh is a sociopath....a personality disorder, not a mental illness. Sociopaths know right from wrong - they simply don't care. The absence of a conscience eliminates any guilt, shame or remorse. Witness McVeigh's pride in his accomplishment.
Our society tends to believe that one must be "crazy" to commit such a crime as murder.
According to Dr. Ronald Markman, "The tendency is to look for some loose screw, some important personality to explain the horror. There is none to be found."
Certainly, killing McVeigh won't teach him anything. It won't bring back any of the people he slaughtered. It won't rehabilitate him, nothing will. It won't do us any good. Life imprisonment won't do any of these things, either.
Killing him will punish him for his crime. That's all.
posted on June 8, 2001 11:51:17 PM new
Interesting how the nuances make all the difference...
In the Gulf War, Tim McViegh might have been commanded to kill Iraqi militia or citizens....understandably, during war, many of our moral codes are suspended. It is interesting, though, how the tone of killing changes when government and politics are involved...
I've heard that Idaho is trying to clear the way to charge the FBI agent who shot and killed Randy Weavers' wife....if found guilty, what would be the appropriate punishment for an agent of the government ? Should we hold him to a higher standard than an ordinary citizen? Than Tim McViegh?
Interesting quandry....
Personally, I think any authority figure who, through the abuse of power, causes the suffering or death of a citizen or citizens, should be publicly executed....that would send a strong message to those in power who think their actions don't have consequences.....those who could learn a lesson or two from Tim McViegh.....about consequences...
From accounts that I have read, his frustration with lack of government accountability in actions such as the Waco standoff and the Ruby Ridge incident were what impelled him to commit his heinous act.....
It is interesting how the government's handling of similar situations after the bombing has changed....a kinder, friendlier, more patient government.....
posted on June 9, 2001 01:50:40 AM newKilling him will punish him for his crime. That's all.
He'll never be able to pay his debt for his monstrous crime in this lifetime. It would be nice to know he'd pay in an afterlife. It's a bit depressing to know that he'll be a poster boy to some wanting to argue on the brutality of the government.
posted on June 9, 2001 03:36:53 AM new
The 'batman' comment was as crass a thing as I've seen in some time, and 'mystique' is exactly what drives the fascination with killing. What is it like to kill? Killing by proxie through governmental intermediaries will not bring any sort of answer, so the mystique will remain. It's isn't capital punishment per se that has a mystique, it is killing itself.
Unfortunately for ghouls, the procedure used, known as "the Missouri Protocol", doesn't afford many thrills for the public to view. McVeigh will simply go to sleep.
For those who wish to watch, use your imaginations along with the imagery that you have sought out in so many blood sport and sci-fi vicarious adventures to envision the happenstance resulting from this:
1. Pre-injection 10cc antihistamine, one half hour prior
to execution.
2. Pre-injection 8cc 2% Sodium Pentathol (5 grams/250
ml, Abbott Labs #6108-01) five minutes prior to
transmittal of subject to death chamber.
3. Machine injection 15cc Sodium Pentathol 2% Solution
(as above) delivered over a ten second time period.
4. One minute wait.
5. Machine injection 15cc Pancuronium Bromide (Pavulon,
Organon Drug Co., 2ml/2mg/ml) over a ten second time
period.
posted on June 9, 2001 08:09:38 AM new
Crass? All depends on your perspective. I haven't an ounce of sympathy for McVeigh. He made a choice to kill all those people. As far as I'm concerned, that act stripped him of human status, along with all associated rights and privileges. I wouldn't even dignify him by referring to him as an animal because there's no animal in the world that would wreak such senseless destruction against its own kind -- or any other, for that matter. Nope, I don't see any tragedy in McVeigh's death. The deaths of all those innocent people, yes. But not his. As others have already said, McVeigh is not the best case to use if you wish to make people reconsider the death penalty.
posted on June 9, 2001 08:24:32 AM new
But Spaz, "old friend", under "equal justice for all"...the standard set for McVeigh is the standard set for us all.
posted on June 9, 2001 08:32:57 AM new
There are many despicable and deviant people in the world, even some that do not murder. Child molestors are one group that we have discussed, for one example.
It makes no sense to use the same problem solving solution that these
malicious and misguided people have used to "solve our problem."
posted on June 9, 2001 10:01:06 AM new
Where do I express sympathy, or ask it of any other for Timothy McVeigh? To fall off to reliance on a degree of crime in justifying vengeance is not an avenue that makes sense. One death at the hand of another or a thousand, it makes no difference.
You, spaz, are not qualified to remove from him any standing amongst us as a human being no matter what level your bloodlust has reached, and the death by deliberate action of any creature is not a joking matter as you attempted to make it be with your 'batman' comment as humor. It's no less tawdry and perverse a thing to say than was dumbya's wisecrack when asked if he knew what the woman in Texas who had just been executed last words had been. In interview on live television he said, in a squeaky little voice "Save me?" then shrugged and sort of chuckled.
posted on June 9, 2001 10:35:46 AM new
I used to be against the death penalty untill I grew up and realized that people do horrible things and need to be punished. The death penalty is too good for anyone who does something like this and feels no remorse. I had to give a speech in a panel discussion for the death penalty, after spending hours in a library researching the subject I can honestly say that it makes me sick that some of these people arent put in a torture chamber right after the verdict is handed down. The two examples I used was fir the worst kind of killers. One who raped(anally, orally and vaginally) a ten year old girl and another who did the same thing but added a little torture and threw the girl off a bridge. These are kids that will never get back their lives and parents who will live forever with this pain. Before anyone is sentenced to death, I believe they should be given a fair trial with DNA tests. I admit that there are alot of innocent people who have died when they were innocent BUT we now have the technology to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in almost all cases whether someone is innocent or not. I wish that we did not have the need for a death penalty, but the fact is we do. And the fact is there are people out there so low who deserve it.
posted on June 9, 2001 01:03:40 PM new
I certainly understand your feelings caravaggio. As I've said, I have very ambivalent feelings about the Death Penalty. I was very opposed to it for years. I changed my mind back in the late 70's when I lived in the San Fernando Valley area of L.A. For anyone who wants a "poster child" FOR the Death Penalty, do a search on Amy Sue Seitz. Her body was found very close to where I lived at the time. That case made such an impact on me, that I did a complete turnaround in my opinion on capital punishment. Everytime I question the death penalty, I think about that case, and it leaves me unable to completely oppose it. And yet...the circus-like atmosphere and celebratory mood that surround any execution bothers me no end. I cannot make up my mind on this issue one way or the other. I just know it is wrong to revel and celebrate the impending death of any human being, regardless of the heineous crimes. And that goes for Theodore Frank too.
posted on June 9, 2001 02:09:08 PM new
This is NOT about sympathy for McVeigh, or a lack of respect and sympathy for his victims; it is about the practice of methodically killing people, which I think represents something very ugly about us. And to make matters worse, we do this full well knowing that our justice system is crooked and sometimes fixed.
There is a reason that other civilized nations have banned this practice, yet for some reason we just can't seem to follow suit.
posted on June 11, 2001 05:42:35 AM new
We end life, kill, murder (call it what you will) every day. As a society and as individuals.
In my opinion, McVeigh is a diseased individual without any hope of a cure. In addition, he is a virulent threat to continue to act upon his beliefs and philosophy given any chance he might have.
That he is a human being is to me irrelevant. No, let me rephrase that. That he is a human being is the ultimate tragedy. He was granted the capacity for self awareness and a mind with which to reason.
He chose his fate. And the fate of many other human beings. And he chose to visit inhumane suffering on many more.
posted on June 11, 2001 10:06:43 AM new
As a person that HATES the death penalty, I'm wondering what lesson is to be learned from this. I feel just as sick today as I felt when I heard about the Oklahoma bombing. What's the lesson?
posted on June 11, 2001 05:19:40 PM new
Hi Femme --
As to your first question...two of the leading states in executions performed (Texas and Florida) are *still* two of the leading states for murder/violent crimes per 100,000 people. Dubya killed 125+ (that number still staggers me) inmates through 1999, and it didn't even make a dent.
