jamesoblivion
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posted on June 11, 2001 08:53:25 PM new
It says "Thou shall not murder".
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kraftdinner
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posted on June 11, 2001 08:57:55 PM new
The original Hebrew text reads "murder" and not "kill".
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BittyBug
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:07:20 PM new
Actually the Hebrew text is in Hebrew...
James, many bibles say Thou shalt not kill...as pointed out in several threads the Bible has been written and rewritten many times...as supervised and ordered by royalty and/or churches. The original scrolls for this portion of the Bible have not been found to my knowledge...I am not sure what was originally written and won't argue the issue with you.
I have read that it means Thou shall not kill as only God has the right to take life.
I have also read that killing is fine when capital punishment is called for or in times of war.
Different versions of the same commandment...guess we each have to find what is right for us.
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bobbi355
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:10:23 PM new
bittybug- I have also read that killing is fine when capital punishment is called for or in times of war.
Does it say that in the Bible bitty? I really was wondering about that .... interesting.
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BittyBug
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:21:09 PM new
It does not say that to me Bobbi...but it does to this man and he presents his view with supporting data.
http://logosresourcepages.org/capital.html
Notice the "crimes" that he feels are punishable by death though.
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caravaggio
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:26:33 PM new
To see all the names and have to scroll down the page made a huge impact on me. Each one of those names was a person and each one of those people had people who loved them who have suffered tremendously. It is your right to believe that we, as a country, should have no death penalty. I can't see that logic, but I can respect your right to it. I guess you would feel that way if someone blew up a building containing your loved ones and you had to go identify the parts. I personally think LI was too good for the man. I personally think he should have been treated to a public stoning by his victim's loved ones. I asked my public speaking class , "How would you feel if it happened to you?". If you watched someone you loved be killed, would you feel the same way? Going back to the two cases I mentioned earlier, how would you feel if you had to watch a man rape your daughter in every conceivable way and then torture her and kill her by throwing her off a bridge, what would you do? Like I said, I wish we didn't have need for the death penalty but we do.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:32:58 PM new
The Bible says "Thou shall not murder" and mistranslations don't change that fact.
If you think about it, it was very kind of God to command us not to murder (the social norm) but allow that there is a time to kill. After all, if God didn't allow killing the proper thing to do when an assailant holds a knife to your throat is allow yourself to be killed rather then to save your own life, and the same goes when your country is being invaded by hostile forces.
As for original Bibles, manuscripts of Exodus dating back nearly 2300 years have been found in Qumran and they indeed say "Thou shall not murder".
I only press the point, because the distinction is signifigant. Murder and kill have separate definitions.
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BittyBug
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:37:05 PM new
caravaggio
I have presented my thesis too...in class and in this thread...even mentioned how I would feel.
I read yours...I know how you feel. I understand, but it was not presented in a way that changed my mind.
If America's justice system were supposedly built for revenge...if that was the stated goal...then Capital punishment would definately be a tool. However, it is not what our justice systems ideal is...
Anyway...I have said what I had to say...some agree, some don't...no sense in me repeating it again and again.
Jules..Thanks for the topic...
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BittyBug
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:43:26 PM new
James...I won't argue with you...I said that.
My Bible and that of many others simply says Thou shalt not kill. Mistanslation...maybe, belabored or not.
Yes, the Bible does give times to "kill" as shown in the most recent link I provided. Interesting "crimes", if one were to ask me...
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caravaggio
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:47:26 PM new
I read yours...I know how you feel. I understand, but it was not presented in a way that changed my mind.
I did not mean for it to change your mind. I don't care whether it does or not. I am trying to understanding the logic that brought you to the decision that we should have no death penalty. Revenge is a nice reason for the death penalty, I am sure it gives the family of the victim peace of mind. The death penalty makes me feel safer to know that people like Timothy McVeigh won't escape from prison or be released on a legal loophole. I have been reading posts by people that seem to be ashamed to live in a country that still employs the death penalty, here is a radical soulution for you all: MOVE!!
[ edited by caravaggio on Jun 11, 2001 09:48 PM ]
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BittyBug
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posted on June 11, 2001 09:53:17 PM new
I am sure that will get you an A in Effective Speech. 
Night Jemes...see ya another time in another topic. This one is wore out for me.
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caravaggio
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posted on June 11, 2001 10:03:05 PM new
Actually I did get an A in public speaking, I also got an A on the research paper I did for this very topic in english. I am feeling sarcasm here, if you don't like what I have to say use that handy little ignore feature. It won't hurt my feelings a bit.
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KatyD
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posted on June 11, 2001 10:16:41 PM new
Revenge is a nice reason for the death penalty, I am sure it gives the family of the victim peace of mind.
How would you know this?
I have been reading posts by people that seem to be ashamed to live in a country that still employs the death penalty, here is a radical soulution for you all: MOVE!!
Ahh....the old "America, love it or leave it!" slogan. From your posts it sounds like you would like to see public executions, the more horrific, the better. If that's what floats your boat, YOU might want to consider "moving". I think Saudi Arabia still engages in public beheadings.
KatyD
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caravaggio
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posted on June 11, 2001 10:31:55 PM new
edited because I don't feel that I should argue with you people anymore. You feel the way you feel and I don't want to change that. I am sorry for any upset that I have brought any of you. But I refuse to apologize for my opinion. I wish we lived in a world where we would not even have a conversation like this. As I have said my perfect world would be a world that doesnt have a need for the death penalty, but we live in a broken world.
[ edited by caravaggio on Jun 11, 2001 10:52 PM ]
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Baduizm
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posted on June 11, 2001 10:44:57 PM new
Well, it's been more than 17 hours since a lethal cocktail extinguished Tim J. McVeigh's life.
He's gone.
Does his death bring any true closure?
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jamesoblivion
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posted on June 11, 2001 10:50:39 PM new
To whom?
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codasaurus
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posted on June 12, 2001 05:50:56 AM new
Quite frankly, I could care less if some folks view McVeigh's death as revenge or closure or murder or killing or contrary to the Bible or in any other way.
None of us constitutes "society". We are all very small and insignificant parts of society and we all seem to suffer from the misconception that society ought to conform to our own personal values.
That isn't what society is about, folks. Society is a sum total of all of us. It fits no one perfectly even as it certainly fits some better than others.
McVeigh did not fit in. He chose to violently attack society in an effort to make it conform to his personal values.
Society had no choice but to protect itself. Debate all you want about the ethics, morality and purpose of the death penalty. It will not change the fact that there are times when all else fails and society falls back on violence as a last resort.
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MrBusinessMan
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posted on June 12, 2001 06:01:14 AM new
McVeigh did what he felt he had to do. He made a stupid decision and paid for it with his life. God bless America.
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Femme
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posted on June 12, 2001 06:31:18 AM new
Code,
As I read your words in your two posts, I can't help but wonder if those would still be your words should it be your child who has gone terribly astray?
I ask this as someone who is now, but wasn't always, opposed to the death penalty.
Having never been the parent, spouse or sibling of a victim of crime, I can't really know how I would feel toward the perpetrator.
I could do a complete about face for all I know. I do hope I am never put in that position.
But, I can imagine how I would feel were I the parent of a child who has gone astray, even one who went as far astray as Timothy McVeigh.
This does not mean I would condone their actions. I'm sure I would be on an emotional roller coaster: disappointment, humiliation and anger.
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MrBusinessMan
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posted on June 12, 2001 07:06:45 AM new
But, I can imagine how I would feel were I the parent of a child who has gone astray, even one who went as far astray as Timothy McVeigh.
This is very true, and it's why relatives and friends of the accused are not allowed to sit on the jury.
[ edited by MrBusinessMan on Jun 12, 2001 07:07 AM ]
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cyanide
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posted on June 12, 2001 07:29:50 AM new
The only thing that bothers me about the execution of McVeigh is that it quite possibly made him a martyr in certain circles. Thats sick and sad. I probably would have said no on giving him the death penalty because of that. Does he deserve to die? Yes. But by killing him also makes him a hero to some, he does not deserve. Thats what he wanted and thats what he got.
Boy do I have a monsterous headache. I hope my grammer wasn't to bad.
cyanide3 on Ebay
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krs
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posted on June 12, 2001 08:17:38 AM new
Why, does your gramma have a headache too?
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BittyBug
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posted on June 12, 2001 08:24:22 AM new
I do Ken, does that count?
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cyanide
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posted on June 12, 2001 08:57:58 AM new
LOL krs.
It was just hard to think clearly.
cyanide3 on Ebay
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codasaurus
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posted on June 13, 2001 05:33:43 AM new
Hello Femme,
I can't state unequivocally that my attitude about anything will remain unchanged.
I can tell you this. If my daughter were to commit such a heinous act I would be faced with the realization that the fault was in large part my own. For not raising her properly.
While there are very few laws, if any, that hold parents responsible for the actions of their children I suppose society would punish me by choosing to only see me as the father of a miscreant and not as a person in my own right.
Much harder would be the self inflicted punishment of realizing every day for the rest of my life that I had failed miserably in the most important task I ever chose to accept.
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Hjw
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posted on June 13, 2001 07:08:55 AM new
codasaurus
I see no evidence whatsoever that the father of Tim McVeigh is responsible for McVeigh's behavior. The United States Army taught him
how to kill and taught him how to deal with the concept of collateral damage. His father is not responsible for his interest in Waco and the fact that he watched this carnage by the United States Government. His father did not select his political philosophy and his reading materials. How can you hold his father responsible?
McVeigh's insanity was not caused by his father. It's a big world and we are all conditioned by experiences beyond that of the family.
Helen
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codasaurus
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posted on June 14, 2001 05:41:33 AM new
Helen,
Please don't put words in my mouth. I wrote nothing about McVeigh's father or even about McVeigh himself in my last post.
I was replying to Femme's question about how I personally would feel if my child were to commit an act of violence of the nature and on the scale of what McVeigh did.
That I would consider and accept the responsibility for my role in a close relative's actions does not mean that I feel qualified to make such a judgement for anyone else.
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Hjw
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posted on June 14, 2001 05:57:11 AM new
codasaurus
You stated,
"I can tell you this. If my daughter were to commit such a heinous act I would be faced with the realization that the fault was in large part my own. For not raising her properly."
How can you assume so much fault for your children's behavior and at the same time not believe that other parents should do the same?
Helen
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Hjw
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posted on June 14, 2001 07:11:13 AM new
codasaurus...a second question...
Children learn from their environment and that environment extends beyond the family.
The United States Government just provided a obscene learning experience for our children. They very methodically laid a human being down at a predetermined time and committed murder.
That's only one example of outside influence. What do you think that a parent had to do with that inhumane spectacle?
Helen
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Femme
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posted on June 14, 2001 07:53:53 AM new
Code,
Your child is still young. Just as most parents, you will do the best you can in guiding and teaching her. That's all we can do. The responsibility can be overwhelming at times, especially when they become teenagers.
While there are many parents who fail their children, who in turn may go on to a life of crime, most of us do the best job we know how. There is no such thing as "Raising Children 101", as far as I know. Truly the hardest job in the world.
When she becomes an adult, her decisions will be made as a result of all of her life's experiences, not just what she learned from her parents. It is out of your control.
My hypothetical question, however, was: Suppose it were your child who chose to commit a crime, wherein the punishment was death by execution? Society will want its justice or revenge or reckoning (as uttered by Bush).
-------
Doctor's appointment. BBL
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